Hi,

sorry for my english in advance. Pokercast is great show but here are 10 short question i would ask Poker Stars representatives:

1. Why your company is registrated in offshore zone?

2. Who owns and runs this company?

3. Why billion dollars company doesn't even have phone number for customers?

4. Would you trust your money with company beeing charged for money loundering?

5. Why company hides last names of its representatives?

6. Does Poker Stars understands that bigest markets they operate in (Germany, Russia, Australia etc.) has national regulation strictly forbiding providing online gambling services?

7. Will Poker Stars be able to keep licenses in Italy, France and Estonia if DOJ proves charges in court?

8. Poker Stars has sufficient funds to pay possible fines?

9. Is there any chance for Poker Stars to get new license anywhere in the world today?

10. Why you never had independent audit of your site RNG despite 60 billions HH stored?

You talk a lot about FTP in great details. I like that a lot. But never heard same questions asked PS people you actualy have access to. Only prepaid promo chat about WCOOP or something like that.

your semi right about the last bit, was abit shocked to see Steve D this week throw a few jabs at FTP despite the fact they no longer operate lol.

you do seem rather anti-stars tho, and whilst they arent my site of choice they certainly dont do much wrong

You don't really expect someone to just hop on here and answer these questions, right?

I play only on Stars right now but some things makes me wonder. Returning to my old job soon and by the way i work as a journalist. Dont understand why PS is painted is such bright colours when so many issues are preaty obvious if you pay atention. Sucks not to have any deasent alternative at the moment.

Just happened. LOL

i agree that there are issues that people just pretend dont happen on stars, but not any of the ones you have highlighted tbh

I'm not going to bother to address most of them and there is a very simple reason why Stars seems to be "painted" in such bright colors. Its not really how its painted, its just contrast provided by the ridiculous mistakes and corruption of AP/UB and FTP. Stars paid everyone and is still operating, still paying its players, and hasn't been revealed as stealing from its players. Not to say there aren't concerns to be had, but I think its pretty much that simple to the average player.

PS: pretty much as I would have answered those questions too.

Why does the RNG need auditing every year? It's a fixed process for generating the decks, and either it does work or it doesn't work. It has been verified to work, and so long as Stars continue to use the same method it's fine. We don't make yearly checks to see whether Pythagoras' Theorem still works on triangles; we don't need annual reassurances that mixing two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen hasn't suddenly started producing oil instead of water.

TT

As i understand they make it annualy. Last audit by Cigital made in march of 2010. Its not the case. PS pays private company to make research on data they provide. Its ridiculous. PS never had INDEPENDENT audit. Dont know why. They have all data stored. Poker is zero sum game. Only way to make it is to analyse this gigantic HH sample and make conclusions. It should be done colectively by well known players, math scientists, representatives from gaming comisions at least from countryes they have licenses to operate etc. Obvioulsy personal information should be protected. But its not even necesary to analyse nosebleed limits. Just take all HH up to middle limits and it will be 99% of data. Not so difficlut to solve this problem once and forever. But it doesnt happening. Any other "research" is totaly pointless. Especialy is Stars pays and provides data for it like it is now.

No. No it didn't.

FTP started out as a legit business ...... till they werent.

it does no harm to have an annual check of the RNG imo anyway

Its most important thing IMO. I mean dont go into rigged not rigged disccusions. Lets say - who knows. But just think about general situation. It is way way easyer to rig games online compared to life play. In casino you have to make phisical act to cheat (bottom dealing, staking deck, using some sort of device etc.). When you play online you have no chance to spot cheating what so ever.

On the other hand when you are cheated in live game there is almost no chance to prove it unless you spot cheating at the moment it ocured. In case of online poker every hand is stored and you have easy accses to it.

So explain to me why i can go to gambling comission with report on possible cheating in live play and they will start investigation (ask for casino video tapes, play undercover, talk to dealers and pit bosses etc), but i can do nothing about cheking online pokerrroom RNG?

In first case there is alomost 0 chance to find truth. In second - it is not difficult to analyse data. Obviosly, i can analyse my own HH. But its almost impossible to get suficient sample size even lifetime. But if you take HH of millions of players you can have super acurate answers. Maybe time will come for it. Most importantly - site should be interested in that. Should, but they apearently are not.

(Q) Can a legit online poker site, with a strong player base, make boatloads of money with no improprieties, subject to even the most scrutinous of review and audit?

(A) Of course!!, and likely be a strong, and profitable business for many many years.

(Q) Then why cheat the players? or screw them by stealing there money?

(A) Read "The Goose That Laid The Golden Egg" by Aesop

Golfers cheat on their scorecards, husbands cheat on their wives, doctors cheat on their insurance payments, students cheat on their tests....

Some people are crooks.....that's the fact.

Risk is all around you...if one feels the level of risk is unacceptable, then there is an easy option in this case - do not participate.

btw - don't buy prescription drugs online at half the cost either :P

Argument - they would not cheat becouse its to much risk for they profits its realy aged. Even 5 years ago I was sceptical about that. Today... After UB/AP scandal, after FTP picpocketing players money and PS loundering money with fake online shops (yeah, not proven in court at this moment). Come on, are you serious? All those things put poker sites in great danger to loose licences what so ever. Did it stoped sites? 2 of 3 bigest poker sites are dead with relevation how everything was done in realyti. I mean same golden goose as you write. PS still didnt payed a cent to DOJ and still under investigation. Even if they would have 1,5 billions to pay USA goverment and accept charges it still would take away possibility to operate under any EU and I am sure any civilised country license becouse such licenses are not given to bussines owner guilty of money loundering. And I am sure USA market is gone for PS forewer. So, you are saying they would not comit crime to risk superprofitable bussines? Hm... wake up.

P.S. I am preaty sure it will be done. Right now there are sites that tracks players HH and offers to sell it on the market. Time will come and gaming comitions will have acces to all data they need. Wild wild west poker era is coming to end IMO. And i think PS knows that perfectly well. They changed tournament structure to make it way faster, offered superturbos, invented time tournaments. It folows FTP trend of last 1,5 years - to acumulate as much as fast as possible not considering integrity of the games.

[QUOTE=P.S. I am preaty sure it will be done. Right now there are sites that tracks players HH and offers to sell it on the market. Time will come and gaming comitions will have acces to all data they need. Wild wild west poker era is coming to end IMO. And i think PS knows that perfectly well. They changed tournament structure to make it way faster, offered superturbos, invented time tournaments. It folows FTP trend of last 1,5 years - to acumulate as much as fast as possible not considering integrity of the games.[/QUOTE]

Yawn... another loosing player seeing conspiracies everywhere... Everybody can safe their HH and analyse them. Play 100k hands and you got a good sample. You can see how often you get which hole cards, how often this or that card comes here or there and so on. Many people have done the analysis and nobody had found anything wrong with the shuffle. It's as simple as that. You don't need 60 Billion hands for that.

If anybody rigges the games online, you only have to analyse the HHs and you have solid proof. You can't rig the games without leaving proof in the HHs. So all this discussion about the shuffle being rigged or not is completely pointless. Analyse your HHs and show us the statistics that proof that something is wrong, until then, safe your breath and safe us the time.

LOL Niela, just for you. My sample of 95K hand played on PS.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/25...swich-1050501/

So whats now? I sended this graph to PS and got answer its totaly normal. Unlucky, but mathematicly possible. Even if i post million hands graph like this it still would be mathematicly possible. That why it should be realy big amount of data analysed and this data base exsits. Another aspect - it should be universal data from different sourses (players). Becouse every time somebody post graphs like this people say - its just you. Learn to play or other stupidity to make all issue a joke. If you look at all picture it would not be draged to personal level.

So acording to you i have solid proof. Should i call police now?

after what happened with full tilt, i find it disturbing that so many people don't agree with the op.
I 100% agree with your questions op. And the fact that pokerstars is essentially a monopoly now makes it more important.

Most of your questions can be easily answered by google search.

But I also think that you're deliberately playing the "naive card". Online Poker is illegal or somewhat legal/illegal in most countries. Now there is hundreds of thousands of people in those countries that want to play online poker. (Btw YOU are probably one of them.) Because of this huge market people/companies will provide online poker. And it's obvious that a company that is offering that service will - to some degree - try to obfuscate their real structure, ownership etc. In order to protect themselves. IMO we all have to accept that or stop playing online poker. It's an easy personal decision.


AFAIK Pokerstars needs to be registered in the same country as their licensing body (GSC in the Isle of Man). They want to earn their money legally, so they need to be registered somewhere.

The 0% corporate tax might also be part of the reason.


Best answer: Isai Scheinberg & Family and others

You can try to find out more through the GSC and make inquiries to the Isle of Man Financial Supervision Commission.

IMO that's just time wasted (see reasons above).


I would also like MJ&Adam ask that question. IMO they don't want 10k+ phone calls per day where people complain about their rigged games etc. And I'm pretty sure that the high stakes players have phone support.

Even if they had a number it would just lead you to some call center operated in India, Ireland, Ukraine ...


I do.

IMO most charges are just a result of PS trying to circumvent the UIGEA. I doubt that PS rinsed money for Walter White and I doubt that ever a bank or payment processor lost money because they did business with PS.


LOL. Coming from "bemyguest". Or is that your real name "Paul Bemyguest"?

Btw. Steve's name is "Steve Day" afaik. (seee Pokercast episode #169)


Pretty sure PS is aware of the situation.

Btw. it's not "strictly forbidden" in Germany. It's still somewhat of a grey area. And with it being regulated in the Isle of Man and the Isle Of Man being part of the European customs union I think there are a lot of cases to be made that they (PS) are allowed to offer the games too (European law superceding national, free trade etc.).


I doubt that PS can answer that question. You should ask the regulatory bodies in those countries. (If they haven't already issued statements).

I doubt that France will shut down PS.fr because of a lawsuit against PS.com in the states. Especially after the "freedom fries incident"


Pretty naive to think PS would answer that question.


The more interesting question is, does PS stand a chance to get a license in the US once poker is regulated.

If PS loses it's license the only thing that concerns me is if I get my money back.


IMO you should ask the IoM GSC that question.



Graph is absolutely standard. There is nothing to discuss. You obviously don't understand variance. Play around with this tool: "Poker Variance Simulator"

LOL. Your graph only proves that you ran bad.

First of all,

i am not incognito. I sended PS many email with issues i have about shady thing happening. They have all my details up to photocopy of my ID. I never got responce sighned by somebody with last name and position in the company. It means those copy paste emails are worthless and has only one purpose - to swipe everything under carpet.

I played poker for living long time and i know situation perfectly well. I can compare MILLIONS of hands i played on 888, FTP and PS and i see real big issues with PS RNG. You say its standart? Its mathematicly possible but not standart. But you cant answer that like you basicly didnt answered none of my questions.

Sick thing is i can do nothing about it becouse of resons you just mentioned - shady sites with registration in offshore zones with basicly no control of any serious institutions. But yes, i love to play poker and i did it for living long time. Till there was competition on market costumer was able to choose. Now there is almost no option anymore. Pure monopoly.

I am returning to my job (i love to btw) simply becouse i am sick of situation, when i have strong feeling i am cheated but i can do nothing about it. 2+2 is not place to argue about this issue. Poeple who earn they living playing on PS will not even try to look at this issue seriously. Funny thing is I am one of them, but i cant accept this. Anyway its case for main stream media to ask those questions. Its case for politics to regulate online gambling. My bigest wish related to poker is for companies like Zynga to start real money games. Or bigest casinos to start online poker services. With clear registration and regulation, with clear responsibilityes and safe enviroment. Starting from blank paper sheet. Not for me - for recreational players that comes to those sites to gamble and feel 100% safe.

Situation right now is ugly. Monopoly in online poker belongs to company that is facing criminal chages and might be simply shuted down by country with bigest poker economy (and bigest economy generaly). I mean Party Poker payed hundrets of millions without any charges what so ever to avoid this. After all DOJ efforts invested in this case and publicity of this issue i cant imagine PS will ever be able to be legit company (it newer was in first place) not dreaming about returning to USA market. And it realy seems that all those problems could be avoided if not simple greed by people who started earning millions and billions risk free basicly from the air. Thats only mine opinion.

P.S. It was not my purpose to start this discusion. I just wanted to ask why those questions are not discused in pokercarst when UB and FTP issues where discused in every episode with great details. Those companyes are basicly dead. I mean its matter of criminal insitutions to sort it out now. But PS is still operating and there are questions that might be way more important for players. Maybe instead of making bets wich country will win most WCOOP bracelest it would make sence to ask owner of PS to come for serious interview? Maybe it will happen. Not on pokercast obviously.

Yep, all that he said...

LOL, hour ago you asked me provide 100K sample. I did and now you say its normal? That exacly how it works. It realy doesnt matter what i provide. You like horse who cant look left and right, only ahead. You ask for arguments and then change your mind instantly when you cant accept it. GL

You have a whole thread explaining to you, why your graph is not the right tool to test the randomness of the shuffle. I couldn't even come close to explain it so well as most of the other posters in that thread. If you read them all and still believe your graph shows that you are being cheated by the RNG, then what can I add?

Thread explains that it is statisticly normal to have such graph. I can accept that. Basicly what it says it is statisticly normal to loose with AA v 22 all in preflop. Sure. 1 time in 8 atempts. Statisticly it is normal to loose 3 times AA v 22 all in preflop in a row to. Probably happens everyday on PS. But if in 100 000 atempts AA v 22 all in preflop is not close to 80/20 preaty safe to say its rigged.

Problem is one person will never acumulate enought hands to have statisticly sufficient sample. And second problem is people like you (sadly but its majority of poker comunity), who instead of presuring PS to let independent audit put presure on players that brings this problem. I understand you dont want to scare fish. You dont want to argue with site that lets you make money. Maybe you realy not capable to get it. In my graph i run more then double under EV in 95K hands overal. Statisticly posible? Sure. Enought to be conserned about beeing cheated? Sure. You just mentioned it in your first post in this thread but sudently changed your mind when i provided this data.

Again, your data is not proof at all, as explained in the other thread. Your graph also doesn't include hands that didn't make it to showdown. So if you had AA against 22, but the 22 folded on the flop, it won't show up in the graph.

Cigital, which conducted tests on the PS RNG is an independent company. You can write to them and ask them for the reports they created and read through it yourselve. Nothing is hidden here.

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/rng/