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preflop with AK preflop with AK

07-08-2008 , 11:25 AM
If only they were sooted...
07-08-2008 , 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodom
LoL

There are no easier fold than this. But if you tilting, shove.
I mean if you're playing 8/5 then people won't ever 4-bet you with less than KK so fold would actually be correct.

But for anyone else...
07-08-2008 , 12:23 PM
Obv, if opponent have a real hand AK is a dog (or facing another AK). If opponent have a very strong hand, AK might be crushed and you can be drawing to a few percent. What is the chance that opponent making a play which pretty much commit him with an inferior hand ? Without any read, the chance in this spot is very slim. Without any specific read, opponent have high PP or AK. There are no reason to shove in a spot where you can get out cheaply.
07-08-2008 , 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodom
Obv, if opponent have a real hand AK is a dog (or facing another AK). If opponent have a very strong hand, AK might be crushed and you can be drawing to a few percent. What is the chance that opponent making a play which pretty much commit him with an inferior hand ? Without any read, the chance in this spot is very slim. Without any specific read, opponent have high PP or AK. There are no reason to shove in a spot where you can get out cheaply.
Look Sodom, you're a huge huge nit, everyone you play with are huge huge nits which are easily exploited etc...that's not the case at 400nl+, people you know, actually play poker and make moves w/o hands...I've been 4 bet by people with absolute trash, I've been squeezed NUMBEROUS times with absolute trash, and I've done both of these myself numerous times...any hand that you can literally 5 bet shove on is the ****ing nuts, and if you fold AK here not only are you incredibly easy to runover, but AK is most likely good here to begin with, since he has a trash hand much more often than AA/KK
07-08-2008 , 01:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodom
There are no reason to shove in a spot where you can get out cheaply.
Poker decisions have got nothing to do with money that you have already put into the pot. It has got more to do with your play being + or -EV.
07-08-2008 , 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabethebabe
Poker decisions have got nothing to do with money that you have already put into the pot. It has got more to do with your play being + or -EV.
but you've invested the monies !!1!11!!!1
07-08-2008 , 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelisitaan
Look Sodom, you're a huge huge nit, everyone you play with are huge huge nits which are easily exploited etc...that's not the case at 400nl+, people you know, actually play poker and make moves w/o hands...I've been 4 bet by people with absolute trash, I've been squeezed NUMBEROUS times with absolute trash, and I've done both of these myself numerous times...any hand that you can literally 5 bet shove on is the ****ing nuts, and if you fold AK here not only are you incredibly easy to runover, but AK is most likely good here to begin with, since he has a trash hand much more often than AA/KK
I can't I argue with your experience. But in this particular case it's seems very unlikely that the opponent are behind. If OP have any additional information regarding his own table image or aggression factor for example it could be a different history, but given the way the hand is played, I have the same view as before.

Regarding to “get out cheaply”; it refers to how deep the stack‘s are. He did only put in about 80usd, and to continue to play the hand it would be quite expensive - like additional 500usd with a hand which very probably are a dog.
07-08-2008 , 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelisitaan
Look Sodom, you're a huge huge nit, everyone you play with are huge huge nits which are easily exploited etc...that's not the case at 400nl+, people you know, actually play poker and make moves w/o hands...I've been 4 bet by people with absolute trash, I've been squeezed NUMBEROUS times with absolute trash, and I've done both of these myself numerous times...any hand that you can literally 5 bet shove on is the ****ing nuts, and if you fold AK here not only are you incredibly easy to runover, but AK is most likely good here to begin with, since he has a trash hand much more often than AA/KK
wat?

Also, I'm pretty sure that Im near 14/10 (someone with pt let me know) and if someone ever folds AK to me then I cant event begin to explain how lol it is in any situation with any action. Also, to those who think nl400 is easier than 100 bc AK never folds then please please please move up bc we need more fish.
07-08-2008 , 04:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalledDownLight
wat?

Also, I'm pretty sure that Im near 14/10 (someone with pt let me know) and if someone ever folds AK to me then I cant event begin to explain how lol it is in any situation with any action. Also, to those who think nl400 is easier than 100 bc AK never folds then please please please move up bc we need more fish.
numerous..I APOLOGIZE
07-08-2008 , 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dudeldo
villain is 14/10, dont think there is much history...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($600)
UTG ($989.75)
MP1 ($600)
MP2 ($586.05)
CO ($591)
Button ($461.55)
SB ($742.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, K.
2 folds, MP2 raises to $24, CO calls $24, 2 folds, Hero raises to $78, MP2 raises to $204, CO folds, Hero?
These are the spots that separate the men from the boys.
07-08-2008 , 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelisitaan
numerous..I APOLOGIZE
ITS TOO LATEEEEEEEEEEEEE
07-08-2008 , 05:29 PM
this is a fold or smooth call imo
07-08-2008 , 06:18 PM
Quote:
Also, I'm pretty sure that Im near 14/10 (someone with pt let me know) and if someone ever folds AK to me then I cant event begin to explain how lol it is in any situation with any action. Also, to those who think nl400 is easier than 100 bc AK never folds then please please please move up bc we need more fish.
I'm 13.5/11.5 and there are many, many, many 'situations with certain actions' where playing AK against my range is sick bad. Guess it shows preflop stats mean very little.

I look forward to NL$400 where I can play JJ+/AK+ like the nuts but at NL$200 it's asking for trouble. I got stacked with QQ again today at NL$200 because I was reluctant to fold it pre when I was 4b.

Again I would urge struggling NL$100 and NL$200 players to be VERY careful about what advice they take from the NL$400+ regs as a great deal of it (largely in respect of play preflop and in relation to 3-4 betting) has hardly any relevance at NL$200.

Case and point: 300k hands ago Narena told me folding KK pre at NL$200 on FT was sometimes necessary and that automatically getting it in was a mistake. At that time I'd just moved over from 6m and was regularly playing for stacks pre with QQ+ and AK. 300k hands later as a solid winning player I'm starting to subscribe to what mike was saying. The dynamics at NL$200 are totally different to NL$400. I'm willing to accept that in OP's case you can profitably push AK in this spot (I'll trust you guys on this, I have limited $400 experience). I promise you it's a losing play at NL$200 of FT with this action.
07-08-2008 , 06:33 PM
Well, the other day I did fold KK preflop 50BB deep after a re-raise..
Against just that opponent at that table, I was sure he could only have AA. Same day I did shove KK after a raise also 50BB deep; considered to fold, but because I thought it was 50/50 he had QQ or AA, it was correct to shove. He thought for a moment and called with QQ.

All this happen, of course not at the sophisticated level of 400NL+, but at 100NL.
07-08-2008 , 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodom
Well, the other day I did fold KK preflop 50BB deep after a re-raise..
lol
07-08-2008 , 07:16 PM
this is an easy shove and folding and calling arent even close
07-08-2008 , 08:42 PM
AK AK AK......not AA AA AA

Two AK hands I played live in Macau in May.

In this hand I am 100BB deep. One limper in MP, dominant LP player raised about 5BB. I had AK in BB, and just called before flop. MP called aswell. King high flop. I c/r the aggro player and won the pot.

At another table I had AK and just limped (about 80BB deep) in MP after an early limp. Aggro player who like to isolate sat to the left of me. I looked at him after he raised and he gave a little speech, which was not promising. After that speech I was unsure if I should continue with the hand. Folded to the early limper who went all in; he was a bit short, about 50BB. I folded at once. A no brainer imo. EP had KK and player to the left of me had QQ.

What do I want to say?

Imo, AK should be played with care in deep stack poker. Some internet high stakes stars we have the honour to see live nowadays in the endless of tv-shows (good that we can see them revealing there "secrets" lol)), treat AK like it is AA. And some horrible play can be seen. I don't think they stay on top for a long time; well, some of them have already fallen down and many more will of course.

Imo, OP should have flat called preflop.
07-08-2008 , 09:10 PM
Cmon guys. AK is just a drawing hand. Pocket 2s is a favorite over AK.

But seriously, Sodom, you're a complete fish. You've played < 100,000 hands in your lifetime and from this last post, I'm guessing all against live players, which is similar to playing tennis against a paraplegic. I'm pretty sure Keli can go through his database and find more hands where AK was best all-in pre than the total number of hands you've played in your poker career. You have no understanding of odds and no clue about the +EV of aggression. You can convince yourself that your opponents are lucky fish when their AK sucks out against your Kings, but all the money they make from "overplaying" AK when you hero-fold your QQ and AK to them easily pays for the times they lose those 70/30s.
07-08-2008 , 10:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllTheCheese
Cmon guys. AK is just a drawing hand. Pocket 2s is a favorite over AK.

But seriously, Sodom, you're a complete fish. You've played < 100,000 hands in your lifetime and from this last post, I'm guessing all against live players, which is similar to playing tennis against a paraplegic. I'm pretty sure Keli can go through his database and find more hands where AK was best all-in pre than the total number of hands you've played in your poker career. You have no understanding of odds and no clue about the +EV of aggression. You can convince yourself that your opponents are lucky fish when their AK sucks out against your Kings, but all the money they make from "overplaying" AK when you hero-fold your QQ and AK to them easily pays for the times they lose those 70/30s.
I might be a complete fish but I am a winner and have always been. I might be a loser one day, but not so far.

This year I have been travelling for 2 months so played only 700hours online; I think I play more than 1000 hands/hour. So just count... I have more than 200 000 VIP at PS but will speed up to get 600 000 VIP in December. I am doing more money from poker than the huge majority which read this thread. So don't talk so much smack.
07-08-2008 , 10:46 PM
It's not really that AK is going to be the best when the money goes all in...in fact, it definitely isn't; however, that's not why you shove AK...you shove it cause #1 lots of $$ in the pot, and #2 decent fold equity


PS: Sodom, I don't mind you and everything like some ppl but #1 you're a shortstacker so plz stop ever giving advice, #2 I've heard from multiple ppl that you're the sobraoluckBoX of .50/1 aka up millions in all in equity and other forms and #3 sorry to break it to you but winning at .50/1 as a shortstack means you're bad at poker, not good at it, because if you were good you wouldn't be shortstacking .50/1
07-08-2008 , 11:12 PM
So you've played well over a million hands and still don't think AK is a good hand? And you folded KK preflop for 50BB (and bragged about it)? I really don't understand at all. No disrespect, but seriously, almost every post you've made in this thread betrays a misunderstanding of the fundamentals.

Quote:
Obv, if opponent have a real hand AK is a dog (or facing another AK). If opponent have a very strong hand, AK might be crushed and you can be drawing to a few percent. What is the chance that opponent making a play which pretty much commit him with an inferior hand ? Without any read, the chance in this spot is very slim. Without any specific read, opponent have high PP or AK. There are no reason to shove in a spot where you can get out cheaply.
But look, even if you really believe he's never bluffing here, we have good equity against his range:

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.824% 18.14% 20.68% 78295380 89232168.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 61.176% 40.50% 20.68% 174740892 89232168.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

Add in a few bluff combos and we're +EV getting it in against him. Plus, since opp is a reg, we can make a slight EV mistake against him in this hand to set him up for later. As in, we want him to confidently take Jacks to the felt against us ("Oh I bet he's overplaying AK again") because in that case our range crushes him. When you have AK at a 9 handed table, there's only about a 1 in 30 chance of being dominated preflop. For this reason, you can play AK really hard before the flop and expect to win fairly often.

Quote:
In this hand I am 100BB deep. One limper in MP, dominant LP player raised about 5BB. I had AK in BB, and just called before flop. MP called aswell. King high flop. I c/r the aggro player and won the pot.
"Winning the pot" isn't a good thing here though. You want to make more value off the many inferior hands he could have. Taking it down here is prob missing value.

I'm not trying to pick on you, but I'm thinking that even though you're winning, you can be an even bigger winner by playing these hands more aggressively and worrying less about going broke. Especially if you're playing short stack, there's hardly any reason to ever fold AK.
07-08-2008 , 11:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelisitaan
PS: Sodom, I don't mind you and everything like some ppl but #1 you're a shortstacker so plz stop ever giving advice, #2 I've heard from multiple ppl that you're the sobraoluckBoX of .50/1 aka up millions in all in equity and other forms and #3 sorry to break it to you but winning at .50/1 as a shortstack means you're bad at poker, not good at it, because if you were good you wouldn't be shortstacking .50/1
People you talked with don't have the full picture. Luck and un-luck are completely irrelevant after a while. I have not been able to support myself solely out from poker winning during 6 years because of bad decissions or luck. I am really not good at poker. I am quite bad actually. So I do not give advice in how to play poker. I give opinions regarding what to avoid if you want to be a winner.
07-08-2008 , 11:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodom
Imo, AK should be played with care in deep stack poker. Some internet high stakes stars we have the honour to see live nowadays in the endless of tv-shows (good that we can see them revealing there "secrets" lol)), treat AK like it is AA. And some horrible play can be seen. I don't think they stay on top for a long time; well, some of them have already fallen down and many more will of course.
Anyone else find this incredibly funny?
07-08-2008 , 11:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodom
I am doing more money from poker than the huge majority which read this thread.
I fail to see how comparing yourself to lurkers is relevant.

Pretty much everyone who has disagreed with you in this thread is a MSNL reg who probably makes 10x more per hour than you.

But I guess a $.5/1 shortstacker knows how to play AK better for 100BB...
07-09-2008 , 12:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SABR42
Pretty much everyone who has disagreed with you in this thread is a MSNL reg who probably makes 10x more per hour than you.
I doubt that more than a few of them make more money than I do, in the long run. Most of them will be bust within a couple of years - like many of the former nose bleeds players are. In the long run they are losers.

The argument for shoving AK in this actual spot are still very thin regardless of some kind of more or less advanced meta argument. The information in the OP is way to small to justify a shove against a player who shows tremendous strength in the betting.

      
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