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Old 09-17-2009, 12:35 AM   #1
ranka
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200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

Reads:
.

Winrate: 1.42 PT/BB ~ 700k hands. Bot score: 57
In my database he is running 16/14/8 - 1000 hands.


Part I.

What is your flop play, plan and why? I post part II later.


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UTG ($285.65)
MP1 ($203)
MP2 ($200)
CO ($297.75)
Hero (Button) ($346.70)
SB ($227.80)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, Q
4 folds, Hero bets $6, SB raises to $20, 1 fold, Hero calls $14

Flop: ($42) K, Q, 8 (2 players)
SB bets $28, Hero ???
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Old 09-17-2009, 12:49 AM   #2
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

88/call. AA/AK are almost never folding and there's only one combo of QQ and one of KK. Plus, (depending on our range for flatting 3bets IP) there are like a bazillion combo draws that we can take this line with also, so it's not like villain puts us on only super-strong hands.
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Old 09-17-2009, 12:50 AM   #3
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

$78

btw, you are good enough to know at which street the hand gets interesting, so just post the turn action in the OP imo. spare us the standard stuff.
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Old 09-17-2009, 01:09 AM   #4
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurt View Post
$78

btw, you are good enough to know at which street the hand gets interesting, so just post the turn action in the OP imo. spare us the standard stuff.
Qfmft if ure not raise getting it in here u r dumb
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Old 09-17-2009, 01:13 AM   #5
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

I kinda like flatting here tbh.
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Old 09-17-2009, 01:17 AM   #6
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kos13 View Post
I kinda like flatting here tbh.
really? any reasoning for it?

my reasoning for this being a must-raise is that we can represent a lot of draws, villain can have a number of strong hands here, villain can shove over with many draws, and there are a lot of scary turns for villain should he have a 1-pair type hand.
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Old 09-17-2009, 01:36 AM   #7
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

make it 70
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Old 09-17-2009, 01:45 AM   #8
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

Make it $78.90.
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Old 09-17-2009, 03:30 AM   #9
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

75'ish seems good.

Last edited by OMGitsCheddar; 09-17-2009 at 03:37 AM.
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Old 09-17-2009, 04:59 AM   #10
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurt View Post
really? any reasoning for it?

my reasoning for this being a must-raise is that we can represent a lot of draws, villain can have a number of strong hands here, villain can shove over with many draws, and there are a lot of scary turns for villain should he have a 1-pair type hand.
Raising is fine (and almost certainly standard), and I doubt it really matters either way. It definitely depends on your image and if you always raise draws on this board. I think it's pretty hard for us to get action from hands that DON'T get it in on the turn (AA, sets, etc.), though. I also think there's a (very) small chance he gets away from AK if we raise simply because he is never in good shape getting it in on this board. We 4bet KK, QQ, and AK PF, so unless we're raise/folding with bluffs, he's shipping it in with ~25% equity. That's not to say that most regs aren't auto-stacking here with AK, but I definitely think he has to completely hate life if he has AK and we raise. If we flat, though, he's sort of stuck on the turn because he can't just c/f a card like 3 (and especially not if he picks up a heart draw).

Again, I really doubt it matters because people will just b/3b shove AK on this board, but I feel like we're never raising to $70+ with air, so he knows a raise means we like this flop and are getting it in, and he can't love that.
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Old 09-17-2009, 06:11 AM   #11
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

I like raising here because we're repping so few made hands (KQ/88)

I'm guessing we flat and turn is an Ace?
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Old 09-17-2009, 06:18 AM   #12
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyPixel View Post
I like raising here because we're repping so few made hands (KQ/88)
Isn't this a BAD thing? If he can narrow our range down to KQ, 88, and SFDs/NFDs, making it $70+ (assuming we never raise/fold) makes it pretty easy for him to figure out his equity vs. a shove...and he has pretty piss-poor equity with one pair.
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Old 09-17-2009, 08:56 AM   #13
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyPixel View Post
I like raising here because we're repping so few made hands (KQ/88)

I'm guessing we flat and turn is an Ace?
If turn is ace, then I fold.

Anyway I flatted his flop continuation bet because I thought if we get stacks in I am underdog - it's wrong. After some time playing with pokerstove I figured out that vs top range: sets, AK, AA we have 59% equity. It's obvious that sometimes he may fold AK or even AA but it's okey because pot is very large and other side he may stack off foulishi with flush draws if we raise. So it looks quite close, raise looks always good but maybe call is more +EV?

And now Part II

What's your turn play and why? I think raise is bad because third flush card came. What u think?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($330.65)
UTG ($285.65)
MP1 ($203)
MP2 ($200)
CO ($297.75)
Hero (Button) ($346.70)
SB ($227.80)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, Q
4 folds, Hero bets $6, SB raises to $20, 1 fold, Hero calls $14

Flop: ($42) K, Q, 8 (2 players)
SB bets $28, Hero calls $28

Turn: ($98) 5 (2 players)
SB bets $52, Hero ???
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Old 09-17-2009, 10:05 AM   #14
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

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Originally Posted by ranka View Post
Anyway I flatted his flop continuation bet because I thought if we get stacks in I am underdog
i dont get this - its not like your folding at any point, so you might as well stack off on flop while he's still willing to go with draws. turn seems like call is only option
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Old 09-17-2009, 10:50 AM   #15
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kos13 View Post
Isn't this a BAD thing? If he can narrow our range down to KQ, 88, and SFDs/NFDs, making it $70+ (assuming we never raise/fold) makes it pretty easy for him to figure out his equity vs. a shove...and he has pretty piss-poor equity with one pair.
i don't think it is, because
- there are far more combos of draws than KQ/88
- any time someone's value range is perceived to be extremely narrow, it's easy for a lot of regs to talk themselves into a light stackoff (nuts or nothing mentality)
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Old 09-17-2009, 11:13 AM   #16
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

not raising this flop is a major mistake i think. too many turn cards are going either to scare him or scare you. AA and AK always stack off on this flop especially vs an aggressive player like you who could push draws.

i usually raise flop small as i sometimes raise bluff in 3 bet pots. so something like 60. Even a minraise is sexy as it might tilt vilain and make him spazz out.

as played call again and plan on calling or shoving any river that isn't an ace or heart
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Old 09-17-2009, 11:18 AM   #17
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

But how do you play AK & AQ (and weaker queens/kings) on this flop? Raise too?
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Old 09-17-2009, 11:23 AM   #18
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranka View Post
But how do you play AK & AQ (and weaker queens/kings) on this flop? Raise too?
good question and excellent point.

i would flat.
the thing is i will flat pretty much 100% of the time those hands and flat monsters and draws a certain % of time as well to balance.
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Old 09-17-2009, 11:52 AM   #19
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

raising flop is okay. It really depends, but I'm not sure if villain sees us bluff raising this flop oop. We obv won't have TJ or anything. I may raise this flop if I have previous history of chkraising flop after calling 3 bet oop. Otherwise, I prefer call if villain is good. An A would be a scary turn but there are obv more cards in our favor.

As for the turn:

I'm looking to chk raise a ton of safe turn cards. In this case, 3 card flush turn, i might just donk it to protect TBH. It sounds weird but our range for donking can induce a lot of airball hands to try to bluff us out. Axh might shove thinking our range is weak, or JJh will flat which will give us an idea of how strong he is, AA AK should def be shoved into us on the turn as well. Therefore the only hand we're really afraid of is AA or completed flush (unlikely). The other only thing we're afraid of is a heart falling on the river. But do the math guys, how often will that happen. If he has a set then just suck it up.
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Old 09-17-2009, 11:53 AM   #20
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayingWithStyle View Post
raising flop is okay. It really depends, but I'm not sure if villain sees us bluff raising this flop oop. We obv won't have TJ or anything. I may raise this flop if I have previous history of chkraising flop after calling 3 bet oop. Otherwise, I prefer call if villain is good. An A would be a scary turn but there are obv more cards in our favor.

As for the turn:

I'm looking to chk raise a ton of safe turn cards. In this case, 3 card flush turn, i might just donk it to protect TBH. It sounds weird but our range for donking can induce a lot of airball hands to try to bluff us out. Axh might shove thinking our range is weak, or JJh will flat which will give us an idea of how strong he is, AA AK should def be shoved into us on the turn as well. Therefore the only hand we're really afraid of is AA or completed flush (unlikely). The other only thing we're afraid of is a heart falling on the river. But do the math guys, how often will that happen. If he has a set then just suck it up.
think you got the action wrong
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Old 09-17-2009, 11:55 AM   #21
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinivici9586 View Post
i dont get this - its not like your folding at any point, so you might as well stack off on flop while he's still willing to go with draws. turn seems like call is only option
raising will get villain to fold out a ton of bluff hands. Why not give him a chance to bluff again on the turn UNLESS it's a terrible turn card. I'd risk an A to fall for him to make another c-bet in 3 bet pot. *licks lips*
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Old 09-17-2009, 11:56 AM   #22
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurt View Post
think you got the action wrong
LOL my bad. OK, i raise flop here like 100%
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Old 09-17-2009, 12:24 PM   #23
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

I agree with Hurt's logic and see this as a flop raise.

On the turn, I'm pretty sure its a call. The only exception would be if he has a wide 3 betting range, cbets a very high % on the flop, and then continues barrelling with A high flush draws and any OESD he has. I'm pretty sure a call >> raise >> fold.

On the river I fold to any ace, I fold to any flush card. If the 5 or 8 pairs then you are in a very difficult spot, because if he pushes his AK hands then you are getting the right price, but he may very well not. I think I fold these, but push if checked to. Anything else I call or push myself.
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Old 09-17-2009, 05:38 PM   #24
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

Ok. Looks like Turn is standard and discussion is dying out. Now final part - call or not. But looks to me braindead call given how the hand is previously played and looks little bit result oriented question by me. So I post results also. If anyone thinks that River is not a call, then feel free to explain.

Thanks to everyone who helped to discuss this hand. I all

Poker Stars $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $330.65
UTG: $285.65
UTG+1: $203.00
MP: $200.00
CO: $297.75
Hero (BTN): $346.70
SB: $227.80

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is BTN with K Q
4 folds, Hero raises to $6, SB raises to $20, 1 fold, Hero calls $14

Flop: ($42.00) K Q 8 (2 players)
SB bets $28, Hero calls $28

Turn: ($98.00) 5 (2 players)
SB bets $52, Hero calls $52

River: ($202.00) T (2 players)
SB bets $127.80 all in, Hero calls $127.80

Spoiler:
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Old 09-17-2009, 07:02 PM   #25
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Re: 200NL: Top two in 3betted pots blind vs blind. 3 Parts

I kinda like a shove on the turn. I doubt he's b/fing half his stack very often on this card.
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