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Old 03-03-2017, 08:15 PM   #26
golfnutt
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

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if you can safely hit in any direction from the bunker it will ~always be a better option than a two stroke penalty. taking a 2 stroke penalty really only makes sense if you expect to take at least 2 strokes to get out of the bunker.

a fried egg with the green sloping away with the water behind could be the exception, but only if there's no safe bailout zone to target from the bunker.
Anything can happen in a bunker. You can blade it out or have it fried at the top. And if you want to take an unplayable, dropping it as you are supposed to now creates a fried egg. If you have a 5-shot lead going into the last hole or two and end up in bunker, that is going to create a new thought process.

And even if you are good but you are playing alternate shot or partner's best ball, it may be +EV to just take it out a bunker.

I wonder if this ruling will even stand over the comment period. That is quite a change. Many golfers can't get out of a bunker at all. It won't incentivize a person as much to learn.
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Old 03-03-2017, 08:34 PM   #27
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

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Anything can happen in a bunker. You can blade it out or have it fried at the top. And if you want to take an unplayable, dropping it as you are supposed to now creates a fried egg. If you have a 5-shot lead going into the last hole or two and end up in bunker, that is going to create a new thought process.

And even if you are good but you are playing alternate shot or partner's best ball, it may be +EV to just take it out a bunker.

I wonder if this ruling will even stand over the comment period. That is quite a change. Many golfers can't get out of a bunker at all. It won't incentivize a person as much to learn.
These are probably the two best arguments against it. There's definitely tournament situations where you'll be better off taking 2 strokes than risking worse even if the expected score is higher with the penalty. That goes against the spirit of the game, particularly in areas that love their deep bunkers.

Better players will almost never opt for the drop option under normal conditions, but like you said, beginners/bad bunker players might almost always prefer the drop, which is also against the spirit of the game and discourages learning.

I'm not sure that it would improve the pace of play much either. In my experience most people who are prone to taking multiple shots to get out of a bunker take their swings pretty quickly and will pick up after a few failed attempts anyway.

In any case, I don't think it would change things much, but I'd really hate to see The Open decided by some potential choker with a 5 stroke lead deciding to take two strokes and drop out of a bad roadhole bunker lie to eventually win by 1-2.
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Old 03-03-2017, 08:54 PM   #28
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

I wonder how the 3-minute rule will be enforced.

**Knowing that the search time is limited to 3 minutes should encourage players to play a provisional ball when they believe there is a chance their ball may not be found.***

Do we really want more people hitting tee shots on their own belief they may not find a ball in 30 seconds? I know a couple of people who do that intentionally just because they want to hit another tee shot. That slows down the game. How hard does one have to look for their ball? Can an opponent actively look for your ball or can you call them off? 180 seconds seems not a lot of time to find a ball in heavy rough alone.
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Old 03-03-2017, 09:05 PM   #29
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

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Anything can happen in a bunker. You can blade it out or have it fried at the top. And if you want to take an unplayable, dropping it as you are supposed to now creates a fried egg. If you have a 5-shot lead going into the last hole or two and end up in bunker, that is going to create a new thought process.

And even if you are good but you are playing alternate shot or partner's best ball, it may be +EV to just take it out a bunker.

I wonder if this ruling will even stand over the comment period. That is quite a change. Many golfers can't get out of a bunker at all. It won't incentivize a person as much to learn.
This wouldn't be the case though if you are allowed to drop from just above the ground - presuming that would that be allowed in bunkers too? Anyone who could play out of sand at all could then take a penalty drop inside the bunker within two club lengths or in line with the flagstick from the original lie and drop it from an inch above and get a nice new lie.

Last edited by MikkeD; 03-03-2017 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 03-03-2017, 09:12 PM   #30
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

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Do we really want more people hitting tee shots on their own belief they may not find a ball in 30 seconds? I know a couple of people who do that intentionally just because they want to hit another tee shot.
I will admit that I am guilty of this, especially if I have been having a bad driving day and I want to "work on something" without it actually hurting my score if it goes wrong.
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Old 03-03-2017, 09:17 PM   #31
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

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I will admit that I am guilty of this, especially if I have been having a bad driving day and I want to "work on something" without it actually hurting my score if it goes wrong.
If you don't really think that your ball might be lost, isn't that then becoming a 'practicing on the course' or a 'causing undue delay' problem?
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Old 03-03-2017, 10:24 PM   #32
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

If it's causing delays or annoying people in your group you definitely shouldn't be doing that. That said, I do it too. Just can't be selfish about it when it's inappropriate.
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Old 03-04-2017, 02:09 AM   #33
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

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This wouldn't be the case though if you are allowed to drop from just above the ground - presuming that would that be allowed in bunkers too? Anyone who could play out of sand at all could then take a penalty drop inside the bunker within two club lengths or in line with the flagstick from the original lie and drop it from an inch above and get a nice new lie.
I have never dropped from an inch. Still different than placing it I would imagine.

Seems strange to walk into the bunker, pick up the ball and place it outside without even trying a shot. If you are a good player and giving a bad player a stroke on a hole, a lot of times your best chance is if they end in a bunker. Bunker play is a huge separator.

I think there is something about playing through to the hole and not changing extraordinary circumstances from a bunker to a placing a ball on grass.
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Old 03-04-2017, 02:38 AM   #34
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

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Seems strange to walk into the bunker, pick up the ball and place it outside without even trying a shot. If you are a good player and giving a bad player a stroke on a hole, a lot of times your best chance is if they end in a bunker. Bunker play is a huge separator.
if they're taking two strokes to drop out of a bunker you should be winning the hole pretty easily anyway...
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Old 03-04-2017, 10:48 AM   #35
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

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The only thing I wish they would have added was making OB play like a lateral hazard instead of stroke and distance.
I think it's a bad idea with OB, the rules should strongly discourage golfers from hitting balls off the golf course onto other people's property. However, if they are cutting the time to search down from 5 to 3 minutes I think they could take away the distance part of the lost ball penalty and have a player drop nearest to the point where it went in his best judgement with a one stroke penalty.

I think this would do more for pace of play than taking away 2 minutes or search time. Also this is a rule that almost never impacts top level pros as there are so many people and cameras to spot a ball and look, but impacts weekend hackers a ton. Also people don't always anticipate a possibility of the ball being lost and consequently don't hit a provisional.

I may be biased because were I play has a lot of in course trees and high grass, and I frequently find balls after searching for more than 3 minutes but less than 5.
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Old 03-04-2017, 04:36 PM   #36
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

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Why not?
You always have the option to play from a hazard. OB is there because the ball might be in some guys garden..... Also some courses have OB in certain areas for safety reasons.
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Old 03-04-2017, 05:03 PM   #37
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

I'd be pretty pissed if I owned a house on a course and they changed the OB rules and my house started getting smashed with balls

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Old 03-04-2017, 09:42 PM   #38
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

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I'd be pretty pissed if I owned a house on a course and they changed the OB rules and my house started getting smashed with balls

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I am not a lover of internal OOB, but I would also be pretty pissed off if the one we have was removed.

You could drive from our 4th hole over the right-hand trees with a draw and aim to land on the right edge of the fairway, cutting the dog-leg. If you failed to draw you would land around the teeing area of the previous par 3, and leave a pretty easy shot to the 4th green, avoiding ponds both right and left from the angle from the 4th fairway. So all of the big drivers did that.

This was extremely dangerous and so we have an internal OOB, which is only in play from the 4th, and not from the 3rd tee.

If you had a drop from OOB, they would start driving that way again.

Last edited by MikkeD; 03-04-2017 at 10:02 PM. Reason: See also davmcg above - safety reasons.
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Old 03-04-2017, 10:12 PM   #39
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

Yup, OB is a necessary evil on a lot of courses with limited design options
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Old 03-04-2017, 10:50 PM   #40
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

Is this 40-second rule really going to be enforced? When does the shot clock start? I imagine the shot-clock doesn't start while choosing a club or checking the line of a putt. Will this be a two-shot penalty or loss of hole in match play? Three minutes seems not enough time to find a ball in an important club event. As someone noted, this won't impact PGA players.

I guess we will have timers. I have seen it all in team play where some people really are ruthless to win by rules enforcement. A win is a win. Same with some gambling games. Can get unfriendly quickly.
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Old 03-04-2017, 11:20 PM   #41
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

I'm not advocating having people play out of back yards and gardens. Just give them the option of dropping where it went out.
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Old 03-04-2017, 11:41 PM   #42
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

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I'm not advocating having people play out of back yards and gardens. Just give them the option of dropping where it went out.
You're missing the point. If there's minimal penalty for breaking windows it encourages aggressive and sometimes dangerous play. There's a lot of spots where it's too risky if OB is in play but you can go for it if you're not gonna lose stroke and distance when you miss.

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Old 03-05-2017, 12:01 AM   #43
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

The rule doesn't exist to prevent broken windows, and I doubt there would be more if they changed it.
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Old 03-05-2017, 12:01 AM   #44
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

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The rule doesn't exist to prevent broken windows, and I doubt there would be more if they changed it.
You're wrong.

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Old 03-05-2017, 12:11 AM   #45
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

We'll just have to agree to disagree
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Old 03-05-2017, 12:25 AM   #46
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

It's not really a matter of disagreement, you're just flat out wrong.
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Old 03-05-2017, 01:09 AM   #47
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

Do you have a cite for the broken window thing, or did you just pull it out of your ass?

I looked and couldn't find one. Although I did find a lot about the rule changing over the years and being debated in the 1700's and 1800's. There was no mention of concern about broken windows on golf courses built around housing developments in the 1800's.
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Old 03-05-2017, 01:57 AM   #48
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

It takes a special kind of idiot to fail to understand that people will go for more risky shots when the penalty for missing is significantly reduced. Sometimes it means you cause property damage when you miss. Other times it can mean you hit other people.

The idea that this needs to be cited is ridiculous.
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Old 03-05-2017, 08:38 PM   #49
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

Can someone explain the point of the rule where you can drop from any height? Is it just to prevent dropping multiple times when on a slope or somewhere where the ball will not be in play when dropping? This seems like a really weird rule to change.
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Old 03-06-2017, 08:46 PM   #50
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Re: USGA and R&A Rule Changes 2017

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Can someone explain the point of the rule where you can drop from any height? Is it just to prevent dropping multiple times when on a slope or somewhere where the ball will not be in play when dropping? This seems like a really weird rule to change.
I remember when it was over back. At shoulder height, that is not consistent and probably a disadvantage for taller players. I don't know how it will be determined the difference between placing and dropping from one inch or less. I guess it will just require space. It can be one millimeter.
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