Completely unsurprising to hear that about Williams. I mean, it could be false but the impression he's always given off is that he's a douchenozzle. There is no doubt that his job calls on him to do more crowd management than any other looper but that doesn't give him carte blanche to be a dick. Bones has some of the same challenges to a lesser degree yet you don't see him causing confrontations.

BUMP

So the news is that Tiger is hiring Joe Lacava? Can't help but think that is a bad career move for Joe.

For all n, the number of majors Dustin Johnson will win in the next n years >= the number of majors Tiger will win.

Why is it so hard to understand that the only country in the world that thinks people living off tips is a good idea, is the USA? Is every other country wrong?

This thread could have been closed after post #19.

BO

Harmon basically calling woods a POS

I love that after this thread got bumped with new "tiger farted" news, it only took 1 post to get derailed again.

When Williams got fired someone asked me if I thought LaCava would leave DJ for TW and I said, "No way."

Wasn't the rumor that Williams was on some sort of salary arrangement rather than a % with Tiger? I could see Tiger offering something that financially trumps DJ's arrangement even if Joe is not sure he is more likely win more.

It's really hard to say whether it's a good career move for Joe cause we'll never know a lot of info that really matters.

Reportedly: Johnson was heading for many rounds oversees; possibly joining Euro tour for next season. Joe has pre teen daughters at home and looking to have a reduced schedule. Makes sense, he is going to get paid handsomely enough to maintain; especially if he is a tightwad when it comes to dollars and sense.

Props to Joe... He will be alright.

Nothing wrong with living off of Tips.... Wife put herself through College on Tips and my son is doing same along with his first car.

Why is it so hard to understand that this would be a huge improvement for everyone involved?

When someone is hired, it should be the responsibility of the person hiring them and the person doing the hiring to agree on an acceptable wage. Telling your customer that not only should you pay for what you're buying but you should also pay some vaguely defined extra to cover the wages of the person providing it, is a really terrible way of doing things.

Instead of people who are providing a service getting pissy and annoyed at the customer for not providing their paycheck, how about getting pissy and annoyed at the guy who's actually responsible for it?

Tipping in cases where you actually get really good service and someone goes above and beyond (as it was actually intended) is fine - using tipping as an excuse for paying your employees less than you should, is not.

Either way the customer is the one who is paying. Why shouldnt that customer get the option on how much they feel is right for them to pay for the service provided?

Themselves? Bad tips usually result from bad service...

Well there are some exceptions. Most doctors (MD not PHD) typically tip horribly and service doesnt seem to matter. As well as other stereotypes generally being true.

Um lets see... Study released in past few days by Zygots(SP) that tipping in the US is at all time high at 19.2%. Study further states that the smallest tippers amongst cities in US are in states where tipping is not allowed to be computed into the wage give. (ie. wait staff and bussers make minimum wage + tips) Other surveys will point out that restaurant prices in those cities are much higher....

If you are working for tips at pizza inn, get a new job.... your probably getting rooked. If thats the best you can do, oh well.. stay single and dont procreate.

Surely the question of "why should they" should be answered before we start with the "why not"?

Do you tip the girl at the checkout counter? Your doctor? Your teachers? Train driver? Why on earth should we have a class of workers that have to rely on a bunch of strangers somehow individually coming up with a number that collectively makes for an acceptable wage? It makes absolutely no sense.

This is nonsense and you probably know it. There are a lot of people who tip even though they get average or below-average service and there are people who don't tip (or at least very little) no matter what service they get.

Good looking people get more tip than less attractive people who provide better service too.

Why should they tip?
Because the customer can pay an appropriate price for the services given.

Yes I would much rather tip the person at check out, my doctor, my teacher, and train drivers.

I do not now because their wages are already included in the price of what Im buying. If their wages were not included (lower my cost for the product) I'd gladly tip them to compensate for the level of service provided.


You are correct. I meant they should get mad at themselves if their average tip is bad. I was working off average tips for that employee not outliers because looking at outliers to make statistical claims is nonsense and you probably know it.

So you are claiming this injustice would go away if they were paid a salary?

Im pretty sure most studies show that more attractive people get higher salaries than less attractive people doing the same jobs.

So that comment adds nothing to your argument.

But it does make sense because it works... Waiting tables is not a 6 figure wage scale. Sorry its low end and some ppl make a mint doing it but they are not the rule.

Most ppl do tip, the ones who dont are idiots although they usually blame it on poor service. But on average, tip scale is up there even with the boneheads mixed in.

Yes, or he can not. What exactly makes you so confident in the average persons infallibility when it comes to not only judging the quality of the services he/she gets compared to what he/she should be getting, but also putting a sensible worth on that service? Why on earth should this be a customers responsibility at all?


So where's the problem in doing that for all people providing you a paid service?

That comment was made as an example of how tips does not necessarily relate to the level of service. A point which you previously in your last post said you agreed with so I'm not really sure how it did not add to my argument...

So does the alternative -and it works better.

This is not relevant at all.
The wage scale does not enter into it. Whether a job is highly paid or lowly paid isn't a factor in whether or not it should be (fully, mainly or partly) funded by tips or by a regular salary.

You are describing variance. So what if 1 or 2 people tip you less than what your service was worth. There will be just as many who tip you more than what your service was worth.

In the end it balances out to be what your true value is.

If the average person was unable to fairly compensate a waiter or server for the service provide no one would apply to become servers. There would be a massive demand for servers since no one is wanting the job, which would force employers to increase compensation to get people to serve at their restraunt, which would cause menu prices to go up.

But when you have an industry that pays <$3/hr and you still get plenty of applicants, then the other compensations (ie tips, there are no health benefits and 401ks at most restraunts) are worthwhile.

That is how I know the average person tips adequatly for the level of service provided.

What you see as a responsibility I see as a privilege. I like being able to tip because it means I can fairly grade you based on how well you did or didnt do your job.

As I've said - the level of pay is really not the main issue. The main issue is why are we singling out certain jobs and deciding that these should have a confusing and pointless payment system when the alternative is much better?

Fair in your opinion - it's not necessarily what the person serving you deserve.

However, the question of "why" still remains. We have already established that there are a number of people doing jobs for you that you don't tip. We also know that it's quite possible to give someone a fair wage without tipping - not only is it possible, it's easier. So why single certain jobs out for this non-logical way of getting paid? Even if we could agree that people working mainly for tips were getting a fair wage, why make it so random and complex?

And before you say it's not complex - local tipping "rules" may not be if you've grown up with them and know when, where and what to tip. But a lot of people travel a fair bit - every country, and sometimes region, has different "rules" when it comes to tipping.

What someone will happily accept a tip for in some countries, someone in another country will be deathly insulted at being offered a tip for. What is the point of having such a confusing system when the alternative is better, easier and more fair?

As a customer, I have no need to start guessing what the service/product I am contemplating buying should be worth. Give me the price and I will decide whether or not I consider it a fair price. I have no interest in keeping track of the wage level and how much I should contribute to it for strangers whose lives and jobs I have no knowledge of.

Not to ignore the rest of your post but I did say I was done with the conversation. But to help people who might be in this situation you described here you go.

If you are not sure about tipping practices you can always ask.

Example. My fiance works for a company near the air port. They provide a free shuttle to and from their parking garage. Not a normal airport shuttle. Its only for the employees of this company. I wasnt sure if the driver accepted tips and what the standard was so I asked him. He jokingly said "$100 was standard" and after a chuckle he said most people give ~$5 on average.

So I gave him $5.

Doesn't work quite so well when you don't speak the language of the country you're visiting And I would also suspect the answer from the guy who is supposed to get the tip is usually higher than what it actually is. Also, in many countries, just asking if the guy expects a tip would be considered rude.

But anyway - we're not going to change the worlds tipping culture no matter how much we debate it. I just find the whole customer-tip-as-the-main-part-of-a-paycheck to be a completely irrational, and really annoying, way of handling wages.

Tipping is really confusing for you?

And it is pointless? (The point is to pay someone for their service.)

And the alternative is much better? (The US, by and large, has the best service amongst restaurant servers in the western world, and yet waiting tables is also a relatively good paying job for the associated skills.)

As I've already explained: When you have to deal with a different tipping culture for every country you visit (and you do), yes.

Which is much more easily done by paying what is actually asked and expected for the service rather than paying part of it and then using some fuzzy judgement about how much else you should have to pay - this isn't about being cheap.

As I've already asked: Why are you not tipping your doctor? Your lawyer? Your teacher? People who are providing you with extremely important services - much more so than those you actually do tip.

Why do you think it's fine to pay your doctor a set wage/fee while you think a waiter should get evaluated and paid based on your subjective opinion of his or her performance?

Your doctor diagnoses cancer for you early enough for it to be treatable and you go "meh - that's par for the course, but this guy who just brought me a coke - I should evaluate how well he did it and how much he deserves to get paid"?
How does that make sense? At all?

Yes, the alternative is much better. How is it acceptable for someone do do their job badly at all? If someone is hired to do a job, they should be capable of performing it - and doing so to at least an average standard. It should not even be a question. To have to use tips as a way of making someone do their job properly is completely unacceptable - or at least it should be.

Also with the alternative you don't get waiters who blow their nose in your food because they don't feel you tipped enough the last time you were there...

Aren't you tipping your Dr. in Co-Pays? And your lawyer's service is helping you, in which you are billed hours for that help.. So I'm paying for his service, similar to that of paying a waiter for their service to me (Paying for them waiting on me hand and foot )... and in all honesty, everyone who pays taxes pays for our teacher salaries already.

Bump...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/gol...-employer.html

A part of me thinks its a joke gone wrong and the media will have a field day here.

As much as I dislike Steve Williams, labelling this as an "extraordinary racist insult" should get the reporter fired. Or at least sent to some class where he can learn what racist insults are like in the real world.