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Old 08-10-2010, 10:27 AM   #51
g-bebe
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

Per the rule, it seems like you guys did the right thing if you both thought they pocketed it.
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Old 08-10-2010, 12:19 PM   #52
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

Correct that your friend should get a drop with no penalty.

I also would give him a "bonus shot" in the form of a 3 iron directed at the person who pocketed his ball.
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Old 08-10-2010, 06:31 PM   #53
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

Today I was playing at a course I hadn't played before (it's 27 holes and I've played the other two nines, but not this one). I get to the 4th hole and can't believe what a bizarre looking hole it is. It's a dogleg par-5 and I have no clue where the flag is; the fairway seems to be off past some trees and water. I hit two balls into the water, then hit a third one into play. As I go toward my ball, I realize that I'm heading toward what seem to be the back tees (I was playing from the middle). I hit my ball 180 degrees in the wrong direction! Obviously, since my ball was a little bit "behind" the tee markers, that meant I wasn't in the teeing ground. So per Rule 11-4, it's two penalty strokes, re-tee, and carry on, correct?
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Old 08-11-2010, 03:17 AM   #54
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

I have no idea what the answer to this could be, but that's awesome if you end up hitting 3 in the correct direction.
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Old 09-05-2010, 03:31 AM   #55
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

On the green, there is a really big loose impediment (a stick) right behind the hole. If I go past the ball is going to hit the stick and stop. Am I obligated to remove the loose impediment?
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Old 09-05-2010, 12:28 PM   #56
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

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Originally Posted by Ortho View Post
On the green, there is a really big loose impediment (a stick) right behind the hole. If I go past the ball is going to hit the stick and stop. Am I obligated to remove the loose impediment?
I can't see how you would ever be forced to move a loose impediment. Should just be filed under rub of the green.

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Old 09-05-2010, 12:40 PM   #57
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

Thanks, as always.
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Old 10-01-2010, 09:07 AM   #58
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

If you accidentally touch your ball with your putter when you address it on the green but the ball does not move is there a penalty for that?

This situation came up for a friend of mine in a club championship in match play.
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Old 10-01-2010, 01:56 PM   #59
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

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Originally Posted by mvoss View Post
If you accidentally touch your ball with your putter when you address it on the green but the ball does not move is there a penalty for that?

This situation came up for a friend of mine in a club championship in match play.
The ball did not change positions, no penalty.

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Old 10-01-2010, 03:07 PM   #60
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

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Originally Posted by ntnBO View Post
The ball did not change positions, no penalty.

BO
Thanks, that is what I thought too. Could you point me to any rules or decisions regarding this. Apparently I am too stupid to find them myself, or maybe it is just tricky to find since I am looking for a decision stating that "this situation does not cause a penalty" instead of a rule that says "this situation causes a penalty".
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Old 10-01-2010, 03:13 PM   #61
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

My best guess is rule 18-2.
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Old 10-01-2010, 03:24 PM   #62
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

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My best guess is rule 18-2.
Pretty much. Decision 18-2a/31 spells it out word for word while referring to rule 18-2a.

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Old 10-01-2010, 05:50 PM   #63
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

what about if you mark a ball with a poker chip or a tee and an opponent or playing partner's ball hits the ball marker and deflects it significantly. procedure from here?
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Old 10-02-2010, 12:26 AM   #64
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

A friend of mine was playing in a tournament and had an interesting situation come up.

On a par 5, his second shot lay up ended up just off the fairway in the right rough. When he gets up there to find his ball, he can't find it. It's a wide open area with no hazards.

The other guys in his group both saw his ball land in the area; however, no one can find it.

After a minute of looking, one of the guys in the group says, "why don't you go back and hit a provisional ball, while we keep looking?" The reason he says this is because the tournament officials have been stressing to everyone to play quickly.
So he goes back and hits a provisional.

When he's walking back, he ends up finding his original ball. By this time, only about 3-4 minutes has passed since he began looking for his ball. He says to his partners, "Hey I found my ball." So one of his partners picks up his provisional ball and tosses it back to him, and he plays his original ball.

After the round is over, a rules official over hears them talking about the situation and how "lucky" he was to find his original ball. After a bit of investigation, my friend gets disqualified because you are not allowed to play a provisional ball once you begin your search for your original ball.

My question is this: Why is this a rule? What is the advantage to the player, if he plays a provisional ball in this situation?
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Old 10-02-2010, 12:55 AM   #65
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

Your friend did not play a provisional ball. Below is the applicable rule copied straight from The Rules of Golf. The reason he was DQ'd isn't necessarily because he wasn't allowed to do that, but rather he holed out with the wrong ball, the penalty for which is DQ. Had this been rectified before he finished the hole, it could have been avoided. Unfortunately, nobody in the group was well versed in the rules.


27-2. Provisional Ball

a. Procedure

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost.


b. When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play

The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

Last edited by ntnBO; 10-02-2010 at 01:02 AM.
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Old 10-02-2010, 07:48 AM   #66
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

it's a good rule to know:

you can hit your provisional ball 2 or 3 times up the fairway (if you like to hit grounders) before you reach the area where your potentially lost ball may be.
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Old 10-04-2010, 04:48 PM   #67
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

This last topic got me thinking to something that happened to me in a tournament this year.

On the 12th hole par 4 of a course that I play very regularly, there is an area to the left and behind of the green that is termed "environmentally sensitive, protected area" and is always termed out of bounds. There is a small wooden fence that protects the area (the fence is easily cleared by anyone who wants to go in the area) and although sometimes balls are visible outside the fence, and could be easily played, the rules say that you are "not to even go in the area" let alone go play your ball from there. I have seen many hackers go get their ball when it is hit in there, and even sometimes play it back onto the green during random rounds. However I know it is out of bounds.

The first round of the tournament, I pull my 2nd shot left of the green, I see it take a hard bounce and from what I can see from the fairway, goes through the fence and 'out of bounds'. I curse myself, and declare a provisional ball, hit it on the green, and move up to see if maybe my ball had just stayed on the happy side of the fence.

When I arrive at the green, I see Red Stakes, all along the side of the fence. I had literally played the course at least a dozen times and even 2 days earlier in a practice round, and there were no red stakes then, for whatever reason, the tournament committee had decided to declare this as hazard for the tournament, instead of the environmentally sensitive area that it is all other times of the year. It even declares it OB on the local scorecard.

Anyway, my playing partner told me that you cannot play a provisional ball if your original goes in a hazard, and I couldn't pick up the provisional and play my 4th shot from beside the green, 2 club lenghts from the hazard no closer to the hole (as red staked procedure). I had about a 25 foot putt for bogey, where if I had known it was a hazard, I would be dropping 4 and more than likely chipping to much closer for my bogey putt.

I ended up making the putt for bogey, haha, so I really didn't lose a shot out of the deal, (possibly gained a shot if I don't get my drop up and down)
so then I sort of laughed and forgot about it until reading this now.

I thought that a provisional ball was the one you play in case you cannot locate your other ball, or it goes out of bounds. If you find your other ball in a hazard, why can't you just pick up your provisional ball and procede with the hole normally. Or was the guy I was playing with wrong in this case?
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:46 PM   #68
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

You can play a provisional ball any time you want. However, once you realize your original ball is in the hazard, then you have to pick up your provisional ball and proceed with the hole normally. So the guy you were playing with was wrong.
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Old 10-04-2010, 11:05 PM   #69
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

As long as you declared i think you're fine
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Old 10-07-2010, 11:28 AM   #70
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Mantis_ View Post
You can play a provisional ball any time you want. However, once you realize your original ball is in the hazard, then you have to pick up your provisional ball and proceed with the hole normally. So the guy you were playing with was wrong.
Then maybe someone can explain this ruling?

Quote:
There was a high profile incident concerning this Rule back in 2004 when Greg Norman told his fellow competitors, Fred Couples and Charles Howell lll, that he was going to play a provisional tee shot for his original ball that he thought might be lost in a water hazard. As explained above the Rules only permit a provisional to be played if the original ball is believed to be lost or out of bounds, not when it is in a water hazard. Ironically, Norman found his original ball in a bunker. He then picked-up the ball that he thought was a provisional from the middle of the fairway and played from the bunker. The Rules Official accompanying the group, Slugger White, told Norman that he would have to return and drop a ball where his second tee shot had come to rest. Including the penalties for playing a wrong ball from the bunker and lifting a ball that was in play, he would have been playing his seventh shot to the green. "He chose not to do that," White said. "He said, 'I'm disqualified,' and left.” Surprisingly, Fred Couples said that he also was not aware of this Rule. Another case of tour professionals not knowing the Rules as well as they should, which always surprises me when I think about how much money can be riding on one or two extra strokes over a four-day competition.
Found this after reading this thread. What I gather is that Norman didn't believe his ball to be lost. He knowingly thought his ball was in the water hazard and declared a provisional. After he found his ball outside of the hazard he abandoned his provisional and continued with what he believed was his correct ball in play. But his "provisional" wasn't a provisional by definition. By picking up the "provisional" he actually picked up the ball in play and subsequently played the wrong ball.

To remedy the situation he had to drop where the second tee shot landed. And play his 7th shot. What I'm unclear on is why he is lying 6?

This is way more complicated than I thought. It was explained further that a player should never have the choice of 2 balls to play. Only one ball can be the "ball in play" at any time.

Quote:
The reasoning behind these rules are to protect what is one of the most integral premises of the game of golf. This is the premise that a player should NEVER be allowed to have a CHOICE (this is an important term here) between 2 balls to play. This idea necessitates the prohibition of provisionals when the water hazards are involved. For example:

A player hits a ball from the tee that is most likely in a water hazard. If a provisional is allowed in this situation, and the original ball IS in the water hazard, then this player would have a CHOICE between the balls. He or she would have 3 choices to proceed involving 2 golf balls: (1) play the original ball as it lies, (2) drop the original ball according to the rules for water hazards and lateral hazards and proceed, or (3) declare the provisional in play and proceed from that point playing his or her 4th shot.

We always have choices when hazards are involved. But we NEVER have choices involving multiple balls. The prohibition of provisionals in this situation keeps this part of the game intact and closes up any loopholes that could be exposed if a provisional was allowed in this situation.
This discusion can be found here:

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2010/04/w...onal-ball.html
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Old 10-07-2010, 12:00 PM   #71
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Mantis_ View Post
You can play a provisional ball any time you want. However, once you realize your original ball is in the hazard, then you have to pick up your provisional ball and proceed with the hole normally. So the guy you were playing with was wrong.
A "provisional ball" is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball that may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds.

This should clarify any question that's cropped up from the last few posts. And obviously you cannot play a provisional whenever you want.

BO
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Old 10-08-2010, 10:17 PM   #72
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

Rules question?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ball strikes a guy-wire out of bounds, what is the ruling?

Does it matter the guy-wire is out of bounds?
Does it matter if the ball finishes in or out of bounds?
Does it matter if it is a guy-wire or overhead power line?
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Old 10-08-2010, 11:06 PM   #73
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

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Originally Posted by fingokra View Post
Rules question?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ball strikes a guy-wire out of bounds, what is the ruling?

Does it matter the guy-wire is out of bounds?
Does it matter if the ball finishes in or out of bounds?
Does it matter if it is a guy-wire or overhead power line?
There are not any provisions for something that happens OB, if your ball is now OB then you re-tee. If your ball bounced back in play, play it where it lays.

Now, if the power line etc is on the course there are two possibilities. In most cases, the course will have a local rule governing the procedure if your ball strike a line, and that is you must replay the shot no matter what. Of course if there is no local rule, you go find your ball and play it from there.

BO
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Old 10-11-2010, 06:38 PM   #74
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

Another provisional/hazard related question:

I'm playing the last hole of the round. I have an approach shot toward the green. There is a water hazard in front and to the right of the green and bunkers on either side of the green. I'm off in the left rough behind some trees. I hit my shot and because I'm facing into the sun I lose track of it. It could be in the water hazard, but it could also be somewhere else. I drive around and look for it. Don't see it. Figure that I probably am supposed to drive back to where I was and hit another one, but I assume it's in the water and drop a ball by the water hazard. (FWIW, I say to myself--I'm playing alone--that I'll call it a provisional just in case I find my other ball.) I pitch it onto the green. As I get up to the green, I see my first ball in the greenside bunker, so I play it.

I figure I probably broke a rule by assuming I was in the water and dropping, but once I find my first ball, is it okay to play it without penalty?
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Old 10-11-2010, 10:05 PM   #75
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Re: *** Official Rules Questions/Issues Thread ***

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I figure I probably broke a rule by assuming I was in the water and dropping, but once I find my first ball, is it okay to play it without penalty?
Penalty. I'll let some of the others spell it all out for you, but to cover the thing called "equity" in your specific scenario, you cannot assume the ball went into the water hazard. You have to be absolutely certain. The fact that you ended up finding your real ball in a bunker is obviously enough for us to say that you didn't search all the surrounding areas well enough to say that without a doubt it went into the hazard. Any time there is uncertainty as to whether your ball went into the hazard or was just lost in, say, the deep rough around the marked hazard, you have to (because of "equity") play it as a lost ball and go rehit your last shot.
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