Would you guys agree that ball matters equally as much with putting as it does with chipping and pitching?

And no, I'm not trying to defend old ball flight laws. But I can certainly tell the difference between putting different types of balls blindfolded.

Maybe on the most basic chip and run but definitely not when you need spin

In terms of how balls roll, I've never noticed a difference in my life. Obviously how they feel and how hot they come off the face are important... but I don't think it makes a difference once you adjust for the firmness.

On balls: I recently tried the AVX from titleist, and am loving it so far. Gonna give it a go for a few more rounds and see if I make a switch from the black pro v1.

Well, perhaps I'm not doing a good job trying to explain it.

You're wrong. Maybe it doesn't matter for you, or you don't think it matters, and that's fine. But there are a ton of players for whom it does matter, including myself. If me or any other pro doesn't like the way a ball feels off the putter we're not going to use it or even try to get used to it. It's that big of a deal. Yes, we could try to get more used to it, but it will still be a hindrance on the greens.

It matters for a lot of golfers, but certainly not all.

I can understand that it matters a lot to someone who thinks they're feeling something they're not actually feeling

Or maybe instead are "hearing" what they're "feeling"

One way to put this question is to consider that you had two balls: a ProV1 and an NXT Tour.

You could only use the ProV1 for one of the categories below (all year), and for all other categories you had to use the NXT Tour

1. Putting
2. Pitches and chips 0-70 yards
3. 80 to 150yards
4. 160+

I am picking number 2 for the ProV . Not that 1 and 3 are not important, but because where I want/need the benefits of the ProV the most is in category 2.

So you both are saying I have no idea what I'm truly feeling or hearing on the greens? And you guys do?

We can back and forth on this forever unless we can run an honest experiment, which isn't going to happen, so I guess it's pointless to continue.

I'm just saying, if you had ear plugs in and you didn't see the ball, I don't think even you, BO, the +4 who is way better than me, could tell the difference.



I will grant that on a 50+ foot putt, ball compression and spin may matter some and there may be some distance difference from ball to ball. Having a feel with a ProV1x for a 60 footer for the last 10 years and then plopping down a Dunlop DDH 110 from 1995 may go a few feet further or shorter with the same swing. I'm not sitting here denying that a putter has loft or that physics happen at the moment of impact and during the moments where the ball makes contact with the ground until its rotation matches the speed of the roll so the ball is no longer skidding. I'm just saying that I think your ability to hole anything inside 30 feet is not being impacted by the type of ball you're using, not in a measured level of importance as compared to the ball's importance for pitches, chips, and any full swings, whereas your stance is that it's MOST important in putting.

I declare whoever has the lowest index is the winner of this argument.

We can both agree that it's hugely important for chipping and pitching.

I can promise you though I can tell the difference between a Pro V1 and a Pinnacle blindfolded and ear plugged. I still think I could tell the difference between a Pro V1 and Pro V1x but am not going to say for certain I could. Might go out one day and try though, would be interesting.

But yeah, this discussion has probably run it's course. And nobody has been insulted, what has become of the internet?

https://youtu.be/Z2NTzNi7LDE



I wish he had tested a toprock or pinnacle but whatevs. Also could have tested a much longer putt...

The only argument I'm making, is that the actual roll of the golf ball (i.e. the only part that matters for a putt), doesn't get impacted by the type of ball. I could probably feel the difference of a prov1 and a pinnacle just by feeling them in my hand blindfolded, and could easily tell the difference in both sound and feel off the putter face... but I don't think it matters in terms of actual performance. Obviously it makes a big difference in any shot that spins.

Speaking of putting. Going to head down to this place https://putterlounge.com/portfolio-3 today and check out what they have. I've had a few people recommend it. Certainly going to get a line put on my taylormade black spider tour thing I've been using for most of the past 18 months (DJ's old putter).

Oh damn, I never heard of that place before. I'm less than an hour from there. Definitely going to check it out.

I'd like to check that place out too if I was in the area.

It's less of a shop than my friend had described. They make carbon putters, which are pretty cool. I bought this https://carbonputters.com/putter-des...ngo-long-neck/, which felt great in their little makeshift office. They have a money back guarantee, so I'm gonna give it a good test this weekend and see.

Left my spider to get a line on it, and regripped.

Sounds like they can do lots of custom engraving and whatnot if that's up your alley.

edit: new avatar if you want it

Anyone have some thoughts on putting from long distances. For some reason I have had a really difficult time lately doing this. Part of it is me playing my courses where I rarely see a putt longer than 30 feet or so.

When I am on the practice green I will attempt some 80ish foot putts and I can leave them 30 feet short. I lose all control of the putter head and I can push or pull them at least 10 feet left or right of the intended line too.

So obviously mental. I have tried different putters, grips, etc but get the same results. Only thing that slightly helps is putting with the bottom hand only on the club.

I've started pacing out my putts. A 50 footer can sometimes look a lot shorter; actually knowing the distance helps me to hit it harder than just relying on feel

I'm a pretty good long putter and what I do is check the line I want and then stand a few paces behind the ball and swing the putter at the length I feel is needed whilst looking at the putt. I do this until I feel I have the correct swing for the distance and then walk back to the ball, still swishing the putter and take my stance and then make the same swing on the putt.

Not sure about the distance control but as far as push/pull goes, I will take my right thumb off the grip and just let it hover there (assuming you use a standard grip). This helps make me slow the swing down so it's smoother and much less likely to twist the club in any way without your thumb on top. Have to do it in practice to get used to it. YMMV

You say it's obviously mental, but it sounds like your putting stroke may be mechanically unsound and it just gets exasperated by adding force/size to the swing. Do you just "hit it harder" or do you just make the pendulum swing longer? Are your shoulders and feet square with the target line?


As for just trying a few random 80 footers, try putting balls to various distances around the edges of the green. Like drop 5 balls, then to try to stop the ball at the fringe at 30 feet for one. Then turn a few degrees and putt to a spot 10 feet longer. Then turn a little more and putt to a spot longer or shorter. I know we all don't always have the time we need to fully warm up, but don't stop until you think you have a good feel for the speed for these putts for the day. You don't want to stop with "well, I still have no clue but here we go anyway". Feeling confident helps a lot.

Just smashing an 80 footer or two probably isn't really going to help all that much for figuring out your feel for the distance but I will grant that it's better than not hitting any putts at all over 20 feet.


Also, when I'm making practice strokes before making an actual putt on the course, I'm always looking at the hole (or rather the target in my head) while making the swings and asking myself "Is the size of this swing the right size for the distance I'm trying to hit it?" If it feels short, I'll make a bigger swing next swing, and if it feels long, I shorten it. This goes back and forth until it feels right, and if I did my practice routine on the green earlier, I'll unconsciously have a better 'feel' for what size swing I need to make. Then I'll address the ball and repeat that swing. Looking up at the target during practice swings is very important to me. I don't have a "I want to hit it 45 feet" swing. It's not necessarily like my wedges where I know my 75% 56* wedge carries 73 yards or whatever. I'm using my unconscious to feel it out. I'm also looking at the target when I'm taking my stance. Your unconscious will naturally aim you better than whatever the other options are for lining up.

I have now reviewed all PGA Tour tournaments back to 1929 (the birth of what would become the PGA Tour). Here are the results of my searches for players who had the best score of the round by at least 5 strokes in a PGA Tour event. I am confident that the rounds appearing in the table below are correct, but there may be a few others as well (though I tried to be comprehensive).

Strokes	Score	Name	Tourney	Round	Finish	Miscellany
7	66	Gene Sarazen	1935 Massachusetts Open	2nd	Won by 14 strokes	Few top pros entered (opposite British Open)
7	63	Cary Middlecoff	1948 Hawaiian Open	3rd	Won by 3 strokes	Few top pros entered (difficult to travel to Hawaii)
7	60	Tommy Bolt	1954 Insurance Open	2nd	Won in playoff	Missed a 12-foot putt on 18 for a 59
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6	65	Henry Picard	1937 Hershey Open	2nd	Won by 3 strokes	Round played in steady rain
6	62	Lawson Little	1941 Texas Open	2nd	Won by 3 strokes	Snowing when round began (winter rules)
6	63	Byron Nelson	1945 Canadian PGA (Montreal Open)	1st	Won by 10 strokes	Few top US pros entered (winter rules)
6	63	Chandler Harper	1946 Virginia Open	4th	2nd (lost in playoff)	Few top pros; came from 9 shots back to tie Sam Snead
6	60	Sam Snead	1957 Dallas Open	2nd	Won by 10 strokes	45 years old
6	63	Dave Marr	1958 Texas Open	1st	T3 (4 strokes behind)	Greens were frozen (22 degrees that morning)
6	59	Al Geiberger	1977 Danny Thomas Memphis Classic	2nd	Won by 3 strokes	First sub-60 round on PGA Tour
6	63	Calvin Peete	1983 Georgia-Pacific Atlanta Classic	3rd	Won by 2 strokes	Final round of rain-shortened 54-hole tourney
6	62	Davis Love III	1992 KMart Greater Greensboro Open	4th	Won by 6 strokes	Beat third-round leader Rocco Mediate by 11 strokes
6	59	Jim Furyk	2013 BMW Championship	2nd	3rd (3 strokes behind)	Event limited to 70 players (Conway Farms, Illinois)
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5	70	Robert Crowley	1929 Massachusetts Open	3rd	4th (3 strokes behind)	Field was club pros and amateurs
5	66	Gene Sarazen	1929 Long Island Open	3rd	2nd (2 strokes behind)	Two courses were used (Sarazen's 66 was on the easier course)
5	66	Macdonald Smith	1931 Metropolitan Open	3rd	Won by 5 strokes	Out-dueled Gene Sarazen on final day
5	68	Tommy Armour	1933 US Open	1st	T4 (5 strokes behind)	Largest first-round US Open lead (North Shore CC, near Chicago)
5	68	Sam Snead	1935 Cascades Open	1st	3rd (4 strokes behind)	Reportedly Snead's very first round in a PGA Tour event (Hot Springs, VA)
5	66	Craig Wood	1941 Masters	1st	Won by 3 strokes	50 players in field; Wood first wire-to-wire Masters winner
5	63	Horton Smith	1941 St. Paul Open	4th	Won by 1 stroke	Last of his 32 PGA Tour wins
5	66	Byron Nelson	1945 Fort Worth Glen Garden Open	3rd	Won by 8 strokes	18th victory of remarkable season
5	62	Ed (Porky) Oliver	1950 Kansas City Open	2nd	T2 (1 stroke behind)	Oliver was runner-up in majors 3 times without a major win
5	60	Bill Nary	1952 El Paso Open	3rd	11th (9 strokes behind)	Set a PGA Tour record with only 20 putts (since eclipsed)
5	62	Fred Haas	1953 Carling Open	4th	T4 (5 strokes behind)	Haas won the PGA tourney that snapped Byron Nelson's 11 consecutive wins in 1945
5	63	Tony Holguin	1954 Bing Crosby	1st	T16 (9 strokes behind)	Three courses used; Holguin played Monterey Peninsula CC
5	65	Don January	1957 Tournament of Champions	2nd	T6 (4 strokes behind)	Event limited to 23 players (Las Vegas)
5	63	Gene Littler	1957 All American Open	4th	2nd (4 strokes behind)	29 career PGA wins including 1961 US Open
5	62	Phil Rodgers	1962 Los Angeles Open	4th	Won by 9 strokes	Jack Nicklaus's first pro tourney (finished 21 shots behind Rodgers)
5	64	Tommy Jacobs	1964 US Open	2nd	2nd (4 strokes behind)	Tied then-lowest ever US Open score (Lee Mackey, 1950 Merion), Congressional CC
5	62	Jack Nicklaus	1973 Ohio Kings Island Open	3rd	Won by 6 strokes	One of 7 wins in 1973 (51st PGA Tour win)
5	62	Gibby Gilbert	1973 World Open	1st	T15 (13 strokes behind)	Two-week eight-round tourney at Pinehurst
5	62	Tom Watson	1973 World Open	5th	T4 (6 strokes behind)	Two-week eight-round tourney at Pinehurst
5	61	Johnny Miller	1975 Dean Martin Tucson Open	4th	Won by 9 strokes	Miller won Phoenix Open week before by 14 strokes
5	62	Hale Irwin	1979 Jackie Gleason Inverrary Classic	2nd	3rd (6 strokes behind)	Set Inverrary course record
5	62	Andy Bean	1983 Canadian Open	4th	T4 (2 strokes behind)	Was penalized two strokes day before for tapping in putt with wrong end of putter
5	63	Gary Player	1984 PGA	2nd	T2 (4 strokes behind)	48 years old; Shoal Creek (Alabama)
5	62	Denis Watson	1984 NEC World Series of Golf	2nd	Won by 2 strokes	Event limited to 42 players (Firestone)
5	63	Doug Tewell	1986 Los Angeles Open	4th	Won by 7 strokes	Known for hitting it straight (Riviera)
5	63	Jim Gallagher	1993 Tour Championship	1st	Won by 1 stroke	Event limited to 30 players (Olympic Club)
5	60	Davis Love III	1994 United Airlines Hawaiian Open	2nd	2nd (1 stroke behind)	Three eagles in round including the 18th hole (Waialae)
5	61	John Huston	1996 Memorial	2nd	5th (5 strokes behind)	Set course record which still stands
5	60	Steve Lowery	1997 Buick Challenge	4th	T3 (5 strokes behind)	Callaway Gardens, Pine Mountain, Georgia
5	59	David Duval	1999 Bob Hope Chrysler Classic	5th	Won by 1 stroke	Eagled 18th hole (5-round tourney)
5	61	Fred Funk	1999 BC Open	2nd	2nd (lost in playoff)	Lift-clean-and-place in effect
5	61	Chad Campbell	2003 Tour Championship	3rd	Won by 3 strokes	Event limited to 31 players (Champions GC)
5	60	Phil Mickelson	2005 FBR Open	2nd	Won by 5 strokes	Birdied his final five holes (TPC Scottsdale)
5	66	Vijay Singh	2006 Mercedes Championship	4th	2nd (lost in playoff)	Event limited to 28 players (Kapalua)
5	61	Vijay Singh	2006 Deutsche Bank	3rd	2nd (2 strokes behind)	In final round Tiger Woods came from behind to win (63 to Vijay's 68), TPC Boston
5	62	Adam Scott	2007 Memorial	2nd	T5 (3 strokes behind)	KJ Choi won tourney
5	63	Geoff Ogilvy	2009 Memorial	3rd	T10 (8 strokes behind)	Shot a 75 in final round while Tiger Woods shot 65 to win by 1
5	62	Graham DeLaet	2010 Reno-Tahoe Open	3rd	T31 (9 strokes behind)	Event opposite British Open
5	61	Tiger Woods	2013 WGC-Bridgestone	2nd	Won by 7 strokes	Event limited to 73 players (Firestone)
5	60	Sung Kang	2016 AT&T Pebble Beach	2nd	T17 (9 strokes behind)	Event played over multiple courses (Kang played Monterey Peninsula CC)

I am not sure if the first entry chronologically, the 1929 Massachusetts Open, belongs in the table. That tourney seems to be classified as an official PGA tournaments, but the field consisted entirely of club pros and amateurs from Massachusetts (no touring pros). The further back we go in time, the more slippery the definition of a PGA Tour tournament becomes.

One other somewhat similar case bears mention. I did not include Sam Snead's 61 at the 1936 West Virginia Closed Pro tourney in which he beat all the other pros by 10 shots. It was a one-day 36-hole tourney consisting of local club pros (which Snead technically was). Perhaps surprisingly the PGA has designated this tourney as an official PGA tournament making it the first of Snead's 82 career PGA victories.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I think I do just "hit it harder" and don't necessarily take a longer pendulum swing. When I just hit it harder I'm sure it's just a stab at the ball creating my push/pull issues. Also likely the cause generally leaving putts woefully short.

In searching around the intertubes yesterday I had the thought of needing to swing my shoulders more. Was thinking of putting a club under my armpits when practicing to get the feel of the shoulders doing the work.

One other question on putting. Does anyone "lock in" their elbows when making a swing with the putter so they can only move in a pendulum motion? I was experimenting with that yesterday after the round.

It's just strange to me that I consider myself a really good putter on fast greens and putting inside of 20 feet. Beyond that and on slow greens I feel like I'm the worst in the world.