Argument among friends: Does giving 2x the half shots change the expectation of a match?

i.e. does me playing as a 0 vs a 9 handicap giving 1 shot on 9 holes, and 0 on the others, favor anyone vs giving 18 1/2 shots?

I don't think it changes the expectation, except that I am now favored on the hard holes, and an underdog on the easy ones. My friends all disagree.

half shots favor the high handicapper

Are you saying this because high handicaps would tend to make more doubles/triples?

Obviously if you had 18 pars vs 9 pars/9 bogeys, it's a push either way.

yes

it's not universal since you can have a 9 who is more consistent than a scratch with a great short game who sprays it 350 off the tee, but it will favor a typical 9 over a typical scratch


also the harder ranked holes will typically yield a wider distribution of scores from both players so the high handicap is more likely to "waste" a shot either by losing by 2 or more or tying the hole.

Book called "Stock Tour Swing" by Tyler Ferrell getting rave reviews from a lot of people on Golfwrx. Decided to order a copy and see for myself. Will review after I get a chance to read it.

Supposedly a very analytical and exhaustive (well over 300 pages) description of the golf swing. I have made a commitment this year to try and better understand the golf swing, the cause and effect - rather than just beating balls at the range and blindly searching for what feels right.

For example one thing I noticed watching Rory this weekend was his move on the downswing, the way he shallows the club. Never noticed it before because I have not understood the components of the swing. It seems like that shallowing move is a constant among great players, and is something I never did in my own swing. So that's something I plan to work on. Hoping this book will open my eyes to some more "a-ha" moments!

ended up being impossible to get everyone on the same page for the package deal. we booked everything yesterday separate and will play...

Thursday - Bear's Best
Friday - Reflection Bay / Chimera
Saturday - Paiute-Snow

...can't wait!

Any suggestions on courses to play in Myrtle Beach?

I really like the legends resort stay and play. Reasonably priced, 3 solid courses on site and 1 super awesome course about 40 mins away which I believe was rated in the top 50 public US courses (at least at the time).

From roommate who lived in Myrtle:

If money doesn't matter The Grand Dunes Resort Club. One of nicest in Myrtle. The Nike Tour played there before it was Web.com. $150.

The Founders Club, $85. Apparently you can ground your club and drive in most of the bunkers. Fun layout and typically in good shape.

True Blue and Caladonia which are on the same property. Hank Haney's program is at True Blue. Caladonia is mint. Those are in the $100 range.

World Tour. Replica holes, Sawgrass, Amen Corner, St. Andrews 1 and 18. $60 and he says this is one of his favorites to play if you're simply looking to have fun.

I've been doing some putting analysis using my simulator, and it presents some interesting data. I have some questions here that might surprise: (assume stimp of 11, and each putt is struck to fall dead center with speed to reach 12 inches past if it were to miss)

1. You are faced with an 8 foot putt, with the fall line sloping down to the right at 4.4% grade. What direction of the fall line forces you to aim furthest left of the hole? For example, a fall line of 90 degrees would be going directly away from you, 0 degrees going directly right of you.

2. What putt takes more force, a perfectly flat 10 footer, or a 6 footer uphill with the fall line at 60 degrees at 4.4% grade?

3. What distance putt (to the nearest foot) would require twice the force as a 9 footer straight downhill at 0.9% grade? (assume same downhill grade)

4. How much time does an 8 foot putt going straight downhill at 2.1 degrees grade take to come to rest, assuming it barely misses and ends up 12 inches past the hole?

5. What is the minimum grade of fall line going directly left-to-right in which you need to aim your 3 foot putt outside of the hole?

6. Assume a 15 foot putt with fall line at 45 degrees uphill with 3.5% grade:

(a) How far right of the hole should you aim (to the nearest inch)?
(b) At what angle will the ball be traveling when it falls into the hole? Again, 90 degrees is directly away from you, 0 degrees directly right of you.

Thanks, goose.

Thanks, this is helpful. World Tour looks really fun. I guess I'm going in peak season though bc all the prices look about 60% higher, but some of these should be doable for sure.

Yea he's been out of area for a few years so prices could certainly fluctuate a bit. Have a good time!

This is a simple linear programming exercise.

It turns out that you should give 0.5 shots for all 18 when you expect to win by one shot on the handicap holes more often than you expect to tie on the non-handicap holes. Everything else washes out.

That's more of another way of asking the same question than an actual answer though. (it does answer that it likely changes the expectation)

These are interesting but pretty meaningless for me since i have no intuition of what an x.xx% grade is. Stimp doesn't mean much to me either. I'd imagine it would be pretty useful to be able to calculate this stuff on the fly or even just develop an intuition with a simulator if we can estimate the grade on course. Is that something you're doing? What's your method for estimating the grade?

Can I use a stimpmeter on course after holing out before proceeding to the next hole under the rules of golf? I'd imagine so.

I imagine it is like practice putts since it isn't digital or anything. You just need to find a flat area and go both ways 3 balls each and average. I kinda want to buy one just for the hell of it.

Like anything, these things take time and practice.

I don't know exactly how aimpoint works, but based on what I see Adam Scott and others do, they are estimating the slope (i.e. "grade") with their feet and using their fingers to gauge the break, 1 finger = 1% slope, 2 fingers = 2% slope, etc. I guess aimpoint broke it down to a simple procedure that a pro can follow. I've seen aspiring pros at my club use spirit levels to measure slope, so I'm guessing they are trying to get a sense of slope so they can go to the course and estimate slope more accurately.

For myself, I have a fair idea of slope of the greens at my club from experience, and how much the ball rolls out for a given stimp reading (my course is typically around 10). One day I measured some greens with a spirit level, and my general assumptions of slope magnitude where reasonably close. Touring pros have topographical maps, which I don't believe show magnitude of slope directly, but can be derived with some quick calcs.

Well it is mathematically correct, and provides the proper direction in determining what the player should do, i.e. analyzing how his opponent plays those holes in relation to himself.

You could build a crude stimpmeter with 3" PVC, 30" in length, elevated 10.6" (26.9 cm) on one end (where you have the ball), and the other end resting on the putting surface. you would need an angle piece where the PVC meets the surface, so the ball rolls down the tube and smoothly onto the surface instead of bouncing. You would also need some way of letting the golf ball go without giving it extra momentum.

The topo green maps they use have % slope numbers in it.

Nothing stopping you to have one for a course you play tons. Digital level and lots and lots of patience are all you need.

i think it is a potentially huge difference.....

i play alot courses that are somewhat like this... 6 very hard holes, 6 medium holes, 6 simple holes.......

so if i get 9 strokes, i get them on 6 hard and 9 medium holes.

now, i get half a stroke on 130 yard par 3 where arguably even a pga tour player barely has an advantage on a steady 10 handicap (i've seen crosby pebble pro-am in person.. almost all players can put it close from 130 yard on par 3. NOT 130 yard approach on par 4 though)

but i get a stroke on a 430 yard tough par 4, which is where most of us blow up.

i would ask your friends this: would you rather get one stroke on one hole, or 1/18th of a stroke on 18 holes? sort of relevent, sort of stupid. but certainly 6 strokes on 6 holes vs. 0.3333 stroke on 18 holes is relevent.

the whole issue of a 14 handicap being based on tons of pars and a 3 to 4 double bogeys a round (legit play) vs. some old guy with a great shot game who bogeys many holes but nothing worse is a much much bigger subject.

people can tell me if i'm wrong, but i would think that giving/taking strokes for $$$$$ in matches requires some serious negotiation. for instance, that old, great short game player might not even be able to get in play off tips at many courses............. interesting aside: i remember with dewey tomko and golf betting. never give/take any strokes. all different tees. no restriction on clubs so he has 20 wedges or something stupid like that. this is him talking. i don't mean this to be all vegas high-stakes golf wagering.

other poster said topo maps aren't that great (my paraphrase)....

BUT they do stop you from completely misreading a putt. say on a course you've never played.. not sure why but i find this a problem on very nice courses. maybe because you can't see as many grass blades.

aimpoint is awesome (i think)... certainly the general ideas and calibrating.

what is determining slopes with "spirits"?

Who said they aren't that great. Half the battle in Aimpoint express is knowing the %slope using your feet. Knowing the exact % will only help imo

this is a flawed way of thinking since 0.0001 strokes is the same as 0.9999 strokes, but it does kind of point out the flaw in automatically calling it a half stroke

if you think of it as "tie goes to the high cap" which is what 0.5 strokes actually is, it might be easier to see that its value doesn't necessarily equal 1 stroke on the 9 hardest holes