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Old 12-20-2013, 01:19 AM   #26
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

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Originally Posted by ship---this View Post
Golf. Learn it. Sometimes bad golfers should actually stfu and think through the reasoning a more experienced player is giving you and apply it to your game. I truly do think NXT's posts are great in the forum and certainly agree he is most likely smarter than me, but in this instance he simply does not see the light.
Tomorrow night I am taking a case of beer to ship's house and "forcing" him to drink each and every one. However after completing each beer he is required to post in this thread. Should be fun.

BO
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Old 12-20-2013, 01:21 AM   #27
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

So he'll pick Box B then, because there are twice as many ways to get that red marble.

Got it.
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Old 12-20-2013, 01:25 AM   #28
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

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This seems to be the rare 2+2 thread where people cling to their erroneous beliefs even more tightly after empirical evidence refuting those beliefs emerges.
This made me laugh.

It's just so hard to question yourself when you are the better golfer. It clouds your judgment and makes you think you have the slightest clue as to what you are talking about.

If LeBron James told Ship he prefers 100 foot shots to lay-ups because he doesn't trust the glass or something completely stupid, I guess Ship would have to accept that 100 foot shots are easier than lay-ups. Because LeBron is better at basketball than Ship.
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Old 12-20-2013, 01:26 AM   #29
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

From Dave Stockton, former PGA Tour player and now tour putting guru:


3. Stay away from dead straight

When Tiger Woods faced that 12-foot putt on the 72nd hole at Torrey Pines to send the U.S. Open into a playoff, he called in his caddie, Steve Williams, to help with the read. I'll bet Tiger saw the putt as breaking to the left but was bothered by a hunch that it might be dead straight. If there's one thing a good putter hates, it's an absolutely straight putt. The reason is, if you start the putt straight, you have a margin for error of only half a cup on either side. Tiger needed Steve to confirm that the putt would break left, because the entire cup would be exposed if Tiger started the ball to the right. The putt indeed broke a couple inches to the left, and Tiger snuck it in on the right edge of the hole.

If the putt for all the marbles looks straight, look again. Study the area near the hole. Remember, the ball will be rolling so slowly when it gets within two feet that even the tiniest slope will cause it to break. Try to at least favor one side.
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Old 12-20-2013, 01:33 AM   #30
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

Jesus Christ.

Whether a putt breaks or doesn't break.... it still has a margin of error of half a cup on either side.
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Old 12-20-2013, 01:39 AM   #31
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

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Jesus Christ.

Whether a putt breaks or doesn't break.... it still has a margin of error of half a cup on either side.
So why do pros always work their driver one way or another? They never aim down the middle and hit a straight ball, they always aim down the edge of the fairway and work the ball towards the middle.

See, this way they have the entire fairway to work with. So why wouldn't the same principle hold true for a breaking putt?

BO
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Old 12-20-2013, 01:44 AM   #32
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

Are you telling me on a dead straight putt the pro would prefer to put sidespin on it and curve it into the hole?

I believe they like to work it 1 way off the tee because:

A) Big misses with the driver wreck your score moreso than relative "big" misses with the putter.
B) They want to know where their miss will be if they do miss. This doesn't really matter with putting because their 2nd putt is typically within 3 feet in any direction and they can slam that home almost all the time.
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Old 12-20-2013, 01:45 AM   #33
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

When I miss dead straight putts, I miss right. I make a lot more R to L, than straight or L to R putts. My misses on R to L putts are on the pro side of the hole and since I kinda suck and sometimes hit it too soft, they fall in. Makes sense to me
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Old 12-20-2013, 01:52 AM   #34
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

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Originally Posted by A-Rod's Cousin View Post
Jesus Christ.

Whether a putt breaks or doesn't break.... it still has a margin of error of half a cup on either side.

what if it has a backstop behind it? What if it is straight dead on, but if you putt it out to the right, there is break that will bring it back in? I think there are hypotheticals where that isn't true. So, that opens up the discussion.

Ultimately, what are people arguing about? Are some puts easier than others? Personally, if I was putting a 15 footer, I'd want it to be slightly up hill, with a right to left break.
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Old 12-20-2013, 01:53 AM   #35
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

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Again, in your first paragraph you say “I think” and that is your argument. Your assumption. So to answer your assumption as to whether a PGA Tour putter is 4-6 times better than a bogey golfer, yes I do.
How are they 4-6 times better? Can you quantify it somehow!

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Next, the notion that a straight putt breaks against you if you push or pull. Let’s take a real world look at this question. Can you find me a 8 foot circle that every single putt is dead straight? That answer is no. Greens are built with undulation and this thing called slope to assist with drainage. So, and I’ll preface this with virtually all, over 95% of straight 8 foot putts will either be slightly uphill or downhill. To give you an extreme example to simplify this, if you miss an 8 foot straight putt that is .2% grade uphill (fyi .2% is typically the least amount of slope that will supply drainage) by an extreme example of 1 foot right that putt as it rolls will break to the right. Now reduce that down to you only push it to the right lip, that putt will still be breaking ever so slightly AWAY from the hole. Thus, yes a straight putt in the real world when pushed or pulled absolutely will move against you. Now factor in a mi**** and it is amplified. However, if you have a right lip putt that you fan and hit to soft it will have a chance of breaking more than anticipated and still going in. Same thing if you pull a putt but hit it too hard, it can hold the line and catch the hole. So both the straight putt and the right lip putt have the clear ability to go in if hit correctly. But the breaking putt does have the added advantage of a couple of backdoor outs to use a poker analogy for you. I will point out what you are probably fuming to use as a rebuttal that the breaking putt hit too softly or too hard can miss even when hit on the proper line, and I agree with that. However, the tolerance of the other positive factors 100% outweigh those mitigating factors.
Holy ****. Of course if there is any slope at all it will affect your margin of error. You are a genius.

Let me now explain to you how this uphill scenario you have created still maintains the same amount of combinations of line + speed as a perfectly flat putt.

You're hilarious .2% grade.... Ok it now pushes out some putts that would have fallen in on the edges. But it also works in our favor on some putts! The putts that now burn the edges are replaced by putts that previously would have lipped out at various different places. You see the uphill grade slowed down some of our putts and now they don't lip out.

The putts we lost to the edges were replaced by putts that now go in but would have previously lipped out if not for the uphill.

Get it? We still maintain the exact same amount of combinations of line + speed.

BUT HERE IS THE REAL MORTAL COMBAT FINISHING MOVE TO THIS ARGUMENT

With the above, you are basically conceding that a perfectly flat putt(no uphill, no side slope) is easier than a non flat putt! You see you are implying that your .2% grade would turn more of my makes into misses than my misses into makes. Sadly for your argument that is not the case and would appear to be a fatal blow.

Of course, it's likely not a fatal blow bc you seem completely incapable of grasping this concept. I have hope tho.

Quote:
As for how good you are, a +3 is great! Congrats. I do find it odd that as a +3 you don’t think that after 4 putts I would know exactly what I expect a putt to do.

For the record, do I think a scratch golfer sucks? Yes as BO noted, but I play with them every time I play and enjoy the company.
Cool

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Did you read the description of the putt I was hitting? Does it make sense to you now how that particular putt had multiple lines that all had speeds that could make the putt go in? So, again I’ll use a poker analogy for you, I had one perfect line and speed combination that will make the putt go in just like the straight putt does. But I have the fortune of a couple backdoor outs because my putt actually has MORE THAN ONE line and speed that can go in. I could walk up and read my putt 1 foot outside right and since I am an aggressive putter I made a good read. However, my buddy is more of a lag putter and his correct line is about 3 feet outside the hole and dying in. There are literally a ton of combinations of line and speed from 1-3 feet outside left that make my putt go in. Sure I am trying for my ideal of 1 foot outside left, but if I happen to hit any of the others on accident I still get rewarded. On the other hand, if the straight putt isn’t hit perfectly there is no reason to not watch after about 10 feet into the roll as you already know it has no chance. I bet I was able to watch half of my putts for a decent amount of time with hopes they might work out. That was way above my expectations and also why I revised what I thought my odds as a +6 actually are in this experiment.
gibberish

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If you can’t see that logic then you simply aren’t listening and thinking and instead are just limited in your thought process.
A-Rod please show me where I avoided questions? I am pretty sure I addressed all concerns. Please read the parts about green design you may have never realized occur. 8 footers will not be straight and flat.
no, you are the one not thinking

Quote:
After that please read the portion again as to why having multiple combinations on a putt this long make it EXPONENTIALLY more makeable. If you don’t understand it, please read it again until it makes sense to you as it is correct. Sometimes things are counterintuitive and those are the times people with good logic and reasoning abilities can see what others can’t even grasp.

And please understand how the ball doesn't give 2 ****s how much break it had before arriving at the hole. Based on it's angle of approach it has a set combination of line+speed combos it can have to find the bottom. They are the same for every putt.

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Golf. Learn it. Sometimes bad golfers should actually stfu and think through the reasoning a more experienced player is giving you and apply it to your game. I truly do think NXT's posts are great in the forum and certainly agree he is most likely smarter than me, but in this instance he simply does not see the light.
Physics. Geometry. Logic. Learn all of them and maybe you will understand how they appear in the golf world.
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Old 12-20-2013, 01:59 AM   #36
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

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Originally Posted by A-Rod's Cousin View Post
I believe they like to work it 1 way off the tee because:

A) Big misses with the driver wreck your score moreso than relative "big" misses with the putter.
B) They want to know where their miss will be if they do miss. This doesn't really matter with putting because their 2nd putt is typically within 3 feet in any direction and they can slam that home almost all the time.
You can believe what you want, but there are two reasons pros work the ball off the tee. You got one of them right, they want to know where their miss will be. But the second reason is what I stated previously, they want to have the entire fairway to work with. This logic has been around for a long time and is unimpeachable as far as the tee shot goes.

Therefore I ask again, why does the same not apply to putting? (this is what ship has been saying, just thought I'd use the tee ball example to make it easier to relate)

Damn I hope stads has finished his finals and chimes in here soon.

BO
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Old 12-20-2013, 02:00 AM   #37
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

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what if it has a backstop behind it? What if it is straight dead on, but if you putt it out to the right, there is break that will bring it back in? I think there are hypotheticals where that isn't true. So, that opens up the discussion.

Ultimately, what are people arguing about? Are some puts easier than others? Personally, if I was putting a 15 footer, I'd want it to be slightly up hill, with a right to left break.
A putt is made easy or hard based on 2 things:

Getting the speed right (sensitive physical act)
Assessing the break

Well, you can say other things like wind and rain and stuff but let's ignore that for now.

This is why the easiest putt is the tap in. For the speed you pick for it (tap), there is a relatively HUGE window of error. Tapping it too light or hammering it (relatively speaking) it will probably still go in. And the line is simple to read.

Anyone saying they'd rather putt a long breaking putt because there are all kinds of combos that put it in the hole is basically becoming "guy who swears he's better at chipping from the fringe than he is putting from the fringe". He's probably really, really, wrong - no matter what his handicap is. Probably arrogant, to boot.
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Old 12-20-2013, 02:01 AM   #38
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

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Originally Posted by ntnBO View Post
From Dave Stockton, former PGA Tour player and now tour putting guru:


3. Stay away from dead straight

When Tiger Woods faced that 12-foot putt on the 72nd hole at Torrey Pines to send the U.S. Open into a playoff, he called in his caddie, Steve Williams, to help with the read. I'll bet Tiger saw the putt as breaking to the left but was bothered by a hunch that it might be dead straight. If there's one thing a good putter hates, it's an absolutely straight putt. The reason is, if you start the putt straight, you have a margin for error of only half a cup on either side. Tiger needed Steve to confirm that the putt would break left, because the entire cup would be exposed if Tiger started the ball to the right. The putt indeed broke a couple inches to the left, and Tiger snuck it in on the right edge of the hole.

If the putt for all the marbles looks straight, look again. Study the area near the hole. Remember, the ball will be rolling so slowly when it gets within two feet that even the tiniest slope will cause it to break. Try to at least favor one side.
I can only imagine if this forum was around when TrackMan first debuted its data about how the PGA ball flight laws were wrong.

TrackMan stating that the face angle is where the ball starts and the path relative to that angle is how it curves.

BO would quote 1986 Golf Digest article where Jack Nicklaus is talking about how if you want to "work" the ball you aim your club where you want the ball to finish and swing the club along the path you want the ball to start on.

Would be pure gold.
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Old 12-20-2013, 02:06 AM   #39
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

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You can believe what you want, but there are two reasons pros work the ball off the tee. You got one of them right, they want to know where their miss will be. But the second reason is what I stated previously, they want to have the entire fairway to work with. This logic has been around for a long time and is unimpeachable as far as the tee shot goes.

Therefore I ask again, why does the same not apply to putting? (this is what ship has been saying, just thought I'd use the tee ball example to make it easier to relate)

Damn I hope stads has finished his finals and chimes in here soon.

BO
You still "have the whole fairway to work with" if you aim down the center and try to hit it straight. It's just that you prefer to have more of an idea of your ball settling on the left half of the fairway or the right half. For obvious reasons - because you have an approach shot upcoming and getting a good angle to the green is HUGE.

While putting, you don't give a flying **** if the putt lips in on the left or right. Because it has no direct affect on your next shot.

Also, as I asked... would you prefer to put spin on a straight putt if you could? Or just hit it straight?
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Old 12-20-2013, 02:07 AM   #40
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

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I can only imagine if this forum was around when TrackMan first debuted its data about how the PGA ball flight laws were wrong.

TrackMan stating that the face angle is where the ball starts and the path relative to that angle is how it curves.

BO would quote 1986 Golf Digest article where Jack Nicklaus is talking about how if you want to "work" the ball you aim your club where you want the ball to finish and swing the club along the path you want the ball to start on.

Would be pure gold.
This means nothing. A former tour player and now putting guru is stating that tour players don't like straight putts. Plain and simple. He's not talking math, he's not talking physics, he's talking about top players not liking straight putts.

So apparently you're going to say that tour pros are silly for not liking straights putts?

BO
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Old 12-20-2013, 02:07 AM   #41
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

Just curious, why didn't the golf industry learn from Iron Byron what it did from Trackman?
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Old 12-20-2013, 02:08 AM   #42
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So why do pros always work their driver one way or another? They never aim down the middle and hit a straight ball, they always aim down the edge of the fairway and work the ball towards the middle.

See, this way they have the entire fairway to work with. So why wouldn't the same principle hold true for a breaking putt?

BO
Really? C'mon BO, you're smarter than this.

It's about the shot cone and setting the upper bound on the miss on one side. If you draw it every time, just to varying degrees, you can start it at the furthest right safe point. In a 30 yard fw, a good shot in the scenario curves between 0 and 30 yards.

For someone who hits it straight and has misses both ways, they start it down the middle and have 15 yards of miss either direction.

But it's the same 30 yard total margin.

The same thing applies to putting. It you always either hit your putts straight or pulled them, you would aim everything at the rightmost point of the line.
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Old 12-20-2013, 02:08 AM   #43
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

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You can believe what you want, but there are two reasons pros work the ball off the tee. You got one of them right, they want to know where their miss will be. But the second reason is what I stated previously, they want to have the entire fairway to work with. This logic has been around for a long time and is unimpeachable as far as the tee shot goes.

Therefore I ask again, why does the same not apply to putting? (this is what ship has been saying, just thought I'd use the tee ball example to make it easier to relate)

Damn I hope stads has finished his finals and chimes in here soon.

BO
The tee ball is example is another terrible one. If you aim down the center of the fairway let's just say you have 5% right and 5% left before you get into the rough. So you have a 10% window to get the club face into.

Ok but you are Jack Nicklaus and you love to aim down the left side of the fairway and hit the butter cut. You now have 1% margin for error to the left, but 9% of room to the right. You again have a 10% window to get the club face in to hit the fairway.

Explain how these 2 scenarios are different? Wahoo you get 4% extra error on your fanned shots to the right, but you lose an equal amount to pulls and double crosses. You end up at the exact same margin for error, it's just distributed differently.
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Old 12-20-2013, 02:09 AM   #44
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

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Originally Posted by A-Rod's Cousin View Post
Anyone saying they'd rather putt a long breaking putt because there are all kinds of combos that put it in the hole is basically becoming "guy who swears he's better at chipping from the fringe than he is putting from the fringe". He's probably really, really, wrong - no matter what his handicap is. Probably arrogant, to boot.
I think having a putt that breaks R to L when your miss is right is a huge advantage for the times you get the speed wrong you still have a chance. If I have a straight putt and don't hit it perfect I've cut the hole in half since the overwhelming majority of my misses are right. Very few people miss 50/50 L or R.
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Old 12-20-2013, 02:09 AM   #45
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

BO, you have an incredibly shameful lack of ability to think for yourself.
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Old 12-20-2013, 02:09 AM   #46
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

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Just curious, why didn't the golf industry learn from Iron Byron what it did from Trackman?
I've always wondered this too.
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Old 12-20-2013, 02:11 AM   #47
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

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This means nothing. A former tour player and now putting guru is stating that tour players don't like straight putts. Plain and simple. He's not talking math, he's not talking physics, he's talking about top players not liking straight putts.

So apparently you're going to say that tour pros are silly for not liking straights putts?

BO
I highly, HIGHLY doubt tour players do not like straight putts. And if they do it might not be for a logical reason. It might be because they fail to remember all their misses on breakers, and don't credit themselves enough for sinking a straight putt "of course I should have made that - it was dead straight!" They also likely beat themselves up too much for missing a dead straight putt.

Doesn't make them right. It's like a kicker saying he prefers a 58 yard field goal over a 36 yard field goal. He's wrong. But it's likely a defense mechanism. Human nature can be very illogical. He may mean they don't like them relatively speaking. But to say you don't like straight putts implies that you like breakers. That is mega dumb.
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Old 12-20-2013, 02:12 AM   #48
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

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You still "have the whole fairway to work with" if you aim down the center and try to hit it straight.
No no no no no.

Assume a 40 yard fairway, if you aim straight and miss left you've only got 20 yards. If you aim straight and miss right you've only got 20 yards. But if you always hit a cut and aim down the left edge you've got 40 yards to play with.

BO
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Old 12-20-2013, 02:15 AM   #49
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Re: Putting prop bet: 100 tries @100ft for $100

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No no no no no.

Assume a 40 yard fairway, if you aim straight and miss left you've only got 20 yards. If you aim straight and miss right you've only got 20 yards. But if you always hit a cut and aim down the left edge you've got 40 yards to play with.

BO
QFpuregold

20 + 20 = 40

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Old 12-20-2013, 02:17 AM   #50
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No no no no no.

Assume a 40 yard fairway, if you aim straight and miss left you've only got 20 yards. If you aim straight and miss right you've only got 20 yards. But if you always hit a cut and aim down the left edge you've got 40 yards to play with.

BO
Lulz.

Nobody would argue that if you have a consistent pattern that moved the ball one way that what you're saying is the effective way to play it. They doesn't matter to the argument though, DUCY?
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