Do you specifically remember any differences in holes 12, 13 or 14 in regards to this? Or any particular holes?

During the renovation in summer '13, the greens mix (recipe of sand mixtures) of those holes was different from the rest of the course. Some higher-ups made a change after the mix on those holes was already installed. I think the change was made due to some problems with the trucking company.

First time playing Talking Stick this past Thursday. We played the south course. Those greens take some getting used to! Sadly, we teed off at 1 and didn't even finish the round.

Wonder - I played the north course on Thursday so just missed you. We teed off at just about 1:30 and finished with plenty of time to spare. So your round was 5:15+++????

Yeah the greens are tough to adjust. They are pretty easy to putt but I find chipping and pitch shots to be the most difficult to control spin and roll out.

That's interesting, but I'd really be reaching by trying to recall a difference between those three and the other holes. For one, both 12 and 13 were playing into a strong wind and were beasts; that I parred 13 after reaching the greenside bunker was probably my biggest brag of the day.

14 is notable in that every time we play I get to hear my member friend moan about how he HATES the redesign on the hole, and in particular the green. It's smallish, protected, and one thing that is probably true but not easily visible is that the green probably slopes towards the back, which means it slopes away from the golfer, downgrain, and on that day way downwind.

Of course, part of the problem with this is if you don't leave yourself the proper distance, good luck getting a half wedge to hold. Either try and drive the green - which was doable from the back tees that day - or lay back far enough to try to have a shot you can spin. Member friend did neither, leaving himself a dreaded 70-ish yard shot to a back flag. He was forced to play to the front left of the green, about 45 degrees away from the hole, and it bounded over the side. From there he couldn't hold the green on his pitch and rolled into the back right bunker, which led to a double bogey. Some of this is on him for bad golf I.Q., but it still seemed perhaps overly punitive.

I had a bit of an adventure, pulling my 7-iron layup drive into the desert (lol) after being reminded about how the right side of the fairway is the wrong angle. After dropping in the desert I hit a fairly nice high wedge which landed near the front of the green, rolled all the way to the back, t-boned the flagstick, and proceeded about another ten feet past. Fairly insane amount of roll.

Not sure if you're suggesting these three greens are firmer than the others but it's certainly believable.

I'm curious as to how things will sort out with the new management and how it will affect pricing and conditions. I've always suspected that being under the Troon umbrella is a bit of a boon for courses since they get passholders as well as golfnow and probably more visibility than they'd get with other operators. But with the casino adjacent and proximity to town they may not need any of that as some other tracks do.

Also, anyone else heard about Wickenburg Ranch? On my drives up to Vegas I've noticed it, but had no idea as to the status of the project. Looks like it could be a pretty amazing course but is probably equivalent to driving to like Apache Stronghold, which I have yet to do (although to be fair if you live on the WEST SIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE this is probably every bit as close as most North Scottsdale courses).

They are touting how it was built in 2008 and they've spent 6-7 years refining it, but I assume that's a spin on "we built at the wrong time and it sat there for half a decade until we could get a new developer on board". Nonetheless, wouldn't object to giving it a spin some time unless reviews come back poor.

Tuq - haven't really heard about wickenburg ranch but pics look sweet. I always liked Los caballeros out there!

Played Aguila today again...course is in awesome shape and greens are money. $35 at 1 pm and finished around 5:40 waiting every single hole. Still love the value and conditions Aguila provides

That's funny because I could have sworn I was playing with you in the 2-3 game after. I even asked the guy but of course it wasn't you.

We were there for a pre-wedding round so there was 3 foursomes back to back. Lots of drinking etc. I still think it was ridiculous we didn't finish.

Lol nah I didn't stop at the casino...had quite a few beers myself and like to get home ASAP instead of continuing to drink at casino

Yeah that's unreal that you guys didn't finish but I def saw you guy teeing off when I drove in cuz it was right around 1 and there was a grip of guys huddled on #1 tee south...my buddy who worked there was like no chance on the south course let's hit the north and looks like it was the right move

A time that slow isn't acceptable on a day with decent weather on a course that frankly is fairly wide open (an aspect from which I benefit, I assure you...).

Makes me wonder if the new management is stacking times closer together (e.g. 8 minute intervals, or the dreaded 7-8 minute intervals) to maximize groups. For shame if they are.

One thing I noticed reading through the Wickenburg Ranch site is that they are spacing groups twelve minutes apart. Bravo, since it can easily equate to lost revenue if they anticipate having full tee sheets. Erin Hills did the same thing. The outcome was that we were always pretty close to the group in front of us but we were spaced out enough from the start that it didn't feel overly crowded.

Tuq - just my opinion but let's say a group of hacks tee off at 1:08 and a group of scratch-5 handicaps tee off at 1:20....at what hole do you think the 1:20 group catches the 1:08? My guess is by about 3-4. But I do get your point that over the full day tee sheet 3-4 mins longer between times can benefit assuming a ranger will force slow players to pick up the pace.

Obviously a round at talking stick will have many more hacks than a sick track like erin hills. It's a tough tough issue to solve other than joining a private club where pace is mandated.

I played the palms club in Palm Springs which is Fred couples club I guess and literally they mandated we finish in 3:45. We finished right around 3:45 and said we were the slowest foursome of the year so far lololol and I think they were serious

Would be in for a Feb run on this course if it's within an hour drive or so. Let me know if you want/need someone to complete a foursome.

^ Will do. Then again we've been talking about a get together for years and it's yet to happen. To be fair, I've met with many people I originally knew from this site and golfed with 8-10 of them as well, including some locally, so it's mostly lack of initiative to actually firm up a date.

Anyway, played Sunridge Canyon yesterday. Same pin set as four weeks ago, except the weather was 20+ degrees warmer and the wind wasn't much of a factor. They had double rolled the (dormant) greens, evidently at the request of the guy putting on our small outing. They were pretty brutally quick downhill but cut that short it seemed easy for them to get scuffed up. Downhill putts could be more unpredictable as a result since they were even more at the mercy of the bumpiness of the surface. Not bad but could have been smoother. We got a good rate though so it was a good value. Course is in good shape otherwise. Not that I'm in a hurry to return though cuz that course kicks me in the nuts every time.

Played last three days...pointe at tapatio, Orangetree and then legend trail today...tough to say which was in the best shape but overall have to go with legend trail

I entered a contest for their promotional event on the 31st. Didn't bink it but as a consolation I have a preferred rate opportunity for a foursome any time in February.

Might be a good opportunity to go check it out.

I've been spending the last couple of months working on my swing and hitting the gym. Getting a little antsy. Is Orangetree in good enough shape for me to get that "knock the cobwebs off" round in?

Rise - Orangetrees greens are the best I have seen them ever right now. The rest of the course is good, not great but definitely worth playing. I would wait until the madness of this week is over though

Maybe a bit off topic but do you guys have big plans this week for WM? I decided I'm gonna skip the zoo this year.

Going on Friday but only got GA this year...sucks but still gunna troll around there for a few beers, the girls and watch the big boys hit a few shots

Going today around noon. Best place to park? Was thinking about the lot near Hayden/101.

Went yesterday, a friend gave me a ticket for 16 skybox, an area called Loge. It is supposed to be an even more exclusive area limited to Loge ticket holders, but it's darker and lower than the rest of the skyboxes so spent most of my time upstairs. Went because I know the weather was going to suck until at least Sunday. Spent a good couple of hours ogling perfect asses of women I can't afford, and saw a little golf too.

Anyway, I know of a spot which requires no shuttles and I can be at the 16th in 10-15 minutes from the time of parking. Frankly it's the only reason I bothered to go because it's wayyyyyyyyyy too much of a PITA otherwise, even with a "valet" parking pass. PM me if you'd like the specs.

Hey guys,

I'm coming down with 5 buddies for a golf trip Feb 20th.
I am pretty familiar with the area, spent a full winter in PHX about 5 years ago when I had aspirations of being a tour pro. Made me realize it's alot easier to make money in Poker than it is in golf.

We have a few courses booked already. Staying at a house on The Foothills in south phx, so we are playing Foothills, club west, The Duke/Southern Dunes 36 in one day, Legacy, all booked already thru golfnow.

We'd like to play some higher end courses the last 2 days of the trip.
Don't have a problem making a 90 min drive up north and shelling out some dough but no experience doing that.

From what I've heard you guys love Quintero. I played it 4 years ago and it was pretty sweet. Might try to get on there.
Any other recommendations? Sedona? Anything up that way?

Other than using golfnow.com, I guess we could call some courses?
3 of our group are CPGA Professionals, and the other 3 are scratch/single digits. It might help us get on if we called a private club.

Played The Rim a few years ago and that was maybe my favourite golf course in AZ. The pros called and they let us on. I think this course is just totally private now?

My opinions

1) cancel your tee times at foothills/club west...waste of time IMO and not good courses

2) southern dunes is money, must play as is legacy

3) check out getting a time at whirlwind (two courses there) and they are both super fun

4) yes Quintero is amazing, played there yesterday and it's the best public course in the state IMO and it's really not even close

5) other options to drive would be gold canyon dinosaur mountain, vista verde

6) yes if u can call private clubs then in the valley check out blackstone, moon valley, arizona/phoenix CC as places that might be willing to hook you up

7) also if u are looking for a cheap fun course in south phoenix I would rather play Aguila (city course) over foothills/club west...better conditions and better greens

8) if u wanna drive up north the stoneridge in Prescott or oak creek canyon in sedona...if u can get out at seven canyons through your pga buddies then def try that too as it's gorgeous

9) also if u are willing to drive 90 mins you guys could do a tucson day and try to hit up courses like gallery club, and some of the other private courses down there as it's only 90 min drive

Also, having 5 guys makes it kind of a burden for hook ups and groupings as you will likely have to do 3some 2some which sucks...u almost need to make it 4, 6 or 8 people to make it work better for getting out and money games...but that's just my two cents

Played pointe lookout mtn and Quintero this weekend. Pointe in really nice shape and fun to play but as always goofy layout so tough to get in rhythm but lots of birdies out there

Quintero was frickin perfect yesterday afternoon. Been having to pay $34 cart fees instead of comps lately but way worth it when rack rate is $180. Greens are perfect, fairways perfect, just a special course IMO

durango's feedback is solid as usual, although I think he's being a little harsh towards Foothills and Club West. Both are decent layouts and good value when in shape. Good mix of holes and elevation change. Certainly they're not upper crust but they're not goat pastures either. Since you're staying just down the street it makes sense to play them.

(That said, Whirlwind is very close too so if there's any way to replace those two with Whirlwind...yeah, do that.)

Ocotillo is pretty close and a Troon managed property which is always in good shape. Worth checking out as it's unlike any of the other courses you'll play - no desert, lots and lots of water. Short but the course defends itself with fast, undulated greens.

It's probably too cold to fully enjoy Sedona / Prescott / Payson, with highs in those places in the 50s, low 60s at best. Courses will likely be open but conditions on the dormant side.

Found out today that Wickenburg Ranch is booked until March so can't recommend that. Frankly, I'd scrap the Quintero idea - it's way, way, way across town and a slog through traffic - and consider Gallery, Stone Canyon, or Ritz Carlton Dove Mountain. Those are almost certainly a shorter drive time wise from Ahwatukee than Quintero.

Finally, look into We-Ko-Pa (either course). I heard they put sand in the goddamned bunkers so it's a must-play again. On a map it may look a long way but it's 99% freeway miles.