Does this account for missing the 2nd put when you 3 put?

For example you miss from 50' and leave yourself 6' and then miss that put as well.

If so how do you track 2nd put length on oob?

It accounts for it b/c if a pro has 2.4 putts from 50' or something and you have 3 then you lost .6 putts. Doesn't really matter if your putt distances went 42/7/1 or 36/15/1 or whatever.

Ok yeah Im ******ed. I didnt read the format of the spreadsheet correctly.

Bumped for accuracy.

Didn't you get an 800?

Many moons ago.

Just happy watching Dufner prove my thesis!

wolfbox nailed it when he said very early on that the pros are playing a different game than we are...

i've putted better this year than i ever have, yet in the last month, i've posted some of the worst scores in several years. driver is just not consistent. i've changed my swing a lot to combat a slice i've had since forever. but hitting the ball straight and/or drawing it a little means that there are a lot of things going on in my swing, and i'm almost as likely to mis-hit it than get that perfect, 290 straight down the middle ball.

i'm just in so much trouble off the tee and/or with approach shots that the fact that my putting has been solid doesn't ****ing matter.

i realize this isn't an argument for/against driving vs putting, but at this point, if i could magically hit most fairways, i'd take that and be frustrated by more 3 putts...

People don't play golf because of putting.

Never saw this thread, good stuff

bump so it is easier to find the putts saved chart. Anyone have an updated chart from this season

Not sure if we're talking about ball striking compared to putting in general, or just at the pro level but: I believe ball striking is more important.

Think about all those holes where if you shank your tee shot it's OB 30 yards in front of you, or if you slice its automatically in the drink. If you're playing in a tournament all it takes is one completely butchered hole from the tee to make all that putting skill pointless. Ball striking cant be half-assed as much as putting can be IMO.

Also some of the guys i play rounds with are around a 2 handicap level and they vary in distance but all very accurate ball striking. On the other hand, when they're on the putting green its pretty funny how they miss relatively easy putts compared to how the rest of the hole played out and they still save par like it's no big deal at all. Meanwhile, i'm praying to the gods above that I sink my 15 footer for bogey after an OB tee shot

short game for the weekend warriors is way more important then driving provided they have decent course management and dont go hitting drivers all over if they're fairway % is extremely low....thing is you can use good course management and hit a 3w or even hybrid/4i off the tee when there's trouble ahead, but there's very little course management that can happen within 50 ft

Disagree. Being a good driver is such an advantage as it makes the rest of the game easier. It's very easy to have a few penalty shots per round if you are poor off the tee and there just isn't that much to gain off being solid from 50 feet. Obviously you can't take 4 to get down from 50 feet, but there just aren't times you will make an 8 due to being poor on the short game.

Again, this thread should have been titled "Long game vs. short game, which is more important?" But I don't have mod super powers.

Not sure if you're talking about pros or weekend warriors, since that's what he was talking about. But I've made plenty of quads from within 50 yards of the green. Especially if greenside bunkers fall under the "short game" umbrella. Just fyi. Hell I hit a 312 yard drive in the fairway into a 331 yard par 4 and made either triple or quad on the hole. lol. And I play with a guy with a similar handicap who is a pretty darn good ball striker (relative to HC) and pure AIDS on the green. Saw him line up 6 inches left on a 4 foot putt. He told me he was bad but damn. We've played three times and I'm pretty sure I've seen him 3-putt from inside 10 feet like 3 times.

50 feet

ship---this has called himself "one of the best drivers of the golf ball in the world" in this very forum. He's played in some PGA Tour events. A sick brag to be sure. We all know how to find his PGA page and stats.

Luke Donald was statistically the best putter in the world for like 3 straight years. He was world number 1 and he's made millions of dollars being a pretty bland driver.

Obviously I'm not talking about weekend warriors in this post. Just posting some facts.

I think it would be cool if ship broke down his game and talked at length about his weaknesses and strengths and what he thinks kept him from making that next step.

Donald's also only won 5 times in 250 events. He's been the worst #1 I can remember.

There's many players with those stats who are rated low in putting. For the most part it's a bomber's paradise.

Even Stricker, who is 3rd in strokes gained, is 22nd in total driving.

The multiple winners in a season that are bad drivers seem to be rare, but I don't know for sure. Snedeker, Zach Johnson, and Donald come to mind.

Here are all the top bombers this year. Let's count the wins:

Luke List 0 wins $264K
Nicolas Colsaerts 0 wins $720K
Dustin Johnson 1 win $2.6 Million
Gary Woodland 1 win $1.7 Million
Bubba Watson 0 wins $1.7 Million
Jason Kokrak 0 wins $1.2 Million
Robert Garrigus 0 wins $1.1 Million
Rory McIlroy 0 wins $1.8 Million
Eric Meierdierks 0 wins $58K (lol)
Ryan Palmer 0 wins $1.5 Million
Keegan Bradley 0 wins $3.4 Million
Martin Flores 0 wins $805K
Steven Bowditch 0 wins $697K

2 total wins. Of all the guys averaging over 300 yards (this list), Keegan is making the most bank by a pretty large margin ($800K over DJ). Not sure where I'm seeing the bomber's paradise.

Of the 5 guys who control their destiny for a $10 Million FedEx prize, here are their distances:

Tiger: 293
Stenson: 291
Scott: 297
Zach: 278
Kuchar: 284

Total Driving

Strokes Gained Putting

I should have said Total Driving. That's a more interesting comparison. Although it's an interesting enough comparison anyways. There's quite a few duds in the top 10 for Strokes Gained. Total Driving is pretty stacked.

I don't have time right now, but did you not see my statement where the titled should have been aimed at total ball striking? Not too mention, why do you go straight to the length category for driving? You do realize that hitting the ball far is not what makes you a good driver right?

Good driving is a combination of length and accuracy....and course management. Also your list above of length is pointless. Raw Tour length data is pointless as is doesn't control for club used off the tee, kind of an important point.

Don’t take this the wrong way, but you can’t break 100 I believe. You are so bad at everything that trying to single out where your leak is seems useless. I am saying that a single digit or less handicap is a better ballstriker on average and that their putting is less of an impact.
Using Luke Donald as an example is not really relevant. Sure there are outliers for each category and he is consistently one of the best putters of all times. So yes, in his case of being one of the 5 best putters in history he can get away with a poor driver.

As for myself, I know I would be (more like would have been a few years ago) about 20th in distance, maybe 15th. I also know that I didn’t play very well in my limited starts in 2009, but even still I average 60% of the FW’s which would be good enough for 100th in accuracy. I know I hit more like 63-65% over the course of an entire season which would be good for roughly 50th let’s say. So worst case is 20th in distance and 100th in accuracy which sums to 120 which would be 18th in Total Driving. Best case would be 15th/distance and 50th/accuracy for 65 and 2nd in Total Driving. I do firmly believe when I am playing full time that is indicative of my driver.

As for my analysis of why I didn’t make it I look at my career in 2 sets. First right out of college and the second shot in 2009.

I didn’t make it the first go around from 1996-2001 because I didn’t have a clue what I was doing. I won a couple of Hooters events, a few on the Tight Lies Tour and qualified for the US Open almost purely on natural ability. I started taking my Haney inspired lessons in early 1999 and got so wrapped up in having a “perfect swing” that I didn’t have time for anything else. My putting was a major issue then but to be honest I never really understood there were fundamentals of putting. I purely put two tees in the ground and tried to get the putterhead to pass through them like Tiger does now. Only difference is he does it through solid fundamentals and strength. I just manipulated it through the gate. Also, my workout routine was terrible as I didn’t have any money for a trainer to teach me what to do. I just went in and banged out heavy reps having basically no clue what I was doing. It was probably more counterproductive that productive.

The second shot in 2009 I honestly feel I just didn’t get enough starts. The few starts I did get early in the season were pretty rough due to traveling for the Monday qualifiers and trying to run my business/keep a pregnant wife happy/practice. I know I can be competitive on that level for sure. My game and results showed that, I just needed the ability to make a schedule a little better than I did.

Again, there is zero reason for this post at all. Nowhere do I state that the driving it long is better than putting well. That said, it actually isn’t that bad of a list, the ALL kept their cards with the exception of Meierdierks whoever that is.


Ball speed:
Tiger: 23rd
Stenson: 22nd
Scott: 14th
Zach: 167th
Kuch: 133rd

Notice anything there? Nobody in the middle? You either hit it really hard and go find it, or really soft and know exactly where it is going. Decent length and decent accuracy doesn’t really work that well. Being a great driver is a combination of length, accuracy, and more importantly, knowing how to use it.

If you read the “Becoming a Professional Golfer” thread you might remember I said that to compete you need to do EVERYTHING very well and 2 things perfectly. What those 2 are is up to you and your natural ability.

And before anyone calls me out for saying he isn't that good for not being able to break 100. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that, heck I'd play with anyone, I don't really care what they shoot as long as it is fun. I am just stating the obvious that he has so many leaks that any one of them could be his death on that particular day.

I'd say the average 90-100 golfer has more then a couple penalty shots if they're driving off every par 4/5.......I agree as you get to guys shooting mid 80s or better the driver is very important, but most weekend warriors are an absolute mess with the driver and are all over the place....say you have a 520 yd par 5 - if the average player avoids the driver and goes 220,190, they have an easy 110 shot in........if they use a driver they go say 260,190 they have a 70 yd shot in......is their proximity to the hole from 70 yards that drastic to make up for the mess the average 90s golfer makes off the tee with the driver? personally I dont think it comes close but I dont have any numbers to back all of that up.

Yeah I figured that's what you meant and just mis-spoke. It's interesting though that on the Total Driving list, starting at 164 down, there are 8 total wins this season:

164 Mickelson 3 worldwide (1 major)
165 Nick Thompson 1 win
168 Kuchar 2 wins (top 5 FedEx standing)
169 Bae 1 win
177 Blixt 1 win

This is out of 184 players. Of course, running hot and finding your driver for 4 straight rounds could have a lot to do with this. Don't think Bae or Thompson have had good seasons otherwise.

I was simply responding to tzwein's "Bomber's paradise" comment, that's why.

I know it probably doesn't mean anything to you but I break 100 about 50% of the time and have career low rounds of 90 and 91. I know there is a poster here who loves yelling YOU CANT BREAK 100! Obviously I still suck but "weekend warriors" aren't all singles, either. I walk with strangers all the time and play with people equal to me or worse pretty often. I can tell you for sure that driving (right now) isn't my weakness. It's definitely bunkers and around the green and 1-putt distance (lag pretty good). For my handicap, I'm probably considered a very good driver. Being a good baseball player probably has a lot to do with this. Have also played ice hockey.

If you could go back in time, would you rather be 18th in Total Driving or 18th in Strokes Gained?

Again, I was responding to tzwein.


One thing to consider is how much harder it gets to hit a fairway the longer you hit it. NXT has spoken about this before. A drive of about 310 has a 13% wider landing window than a drive of 275.

I realize you are talking about Total Driving - which accounts for this. I'm just pointing out how Total Driving penalizes bombers because fairways do not widen at the 310 mark as compared to the 275 mark. In fact, often times they stick bunkers on each side of the fairway out there to amplify the risk/reward aspect of trying to hammer driver. I'm an architect so I do think about golf course design a lot and I wish more fairways opened up beyond 300 yards to HELP the bombers. I think it's crap that fairways are set up to even the field off the tee. Why are people penalized for being able to smash the ball with the same window as a guy who hits it much shorter? Dumb.


That's not obvious because it's simply not true. People on this forum really don't have any clue what someone who shoots in the 90s plays like. What you're talking about is a guy who shoots like 115. You simply cannot spray the tee shot all over the place and shoot 95. We're talking about 23 wasted strokes here. It's easy to waste a stroke around almost every green. Guys like me just don't get up and down often. 1 wasted short game stroke on every green means 18 for the round, leaving 5 for everything else (slice oob, water ball, bad punch-out, skull, etc.)

Everyone on this forum thinks people who shoot in the 90s are like flailing away at the ball like an eplieptic. It's not true. lol