Attended an LPGA event today. I noticed that quite a few of the lady pros had the ball way forward in their stances for the lofted irons/wedges. Is this normal, or just a personal preference? It seems to me that by the time the club reaches the ball it would be way past the bottoming out point.

Also, many of the women seem to swing very slowly (compared to men) but still manage to generate good distance. Is this because of better equipment, or because they have excellent mechanics and consistently make (almost) perfect contact?

I don't understand why the womens' backswings are almost universally very slow compared to the men.

No idea about the ball being forward in their stance. I'm sure there are things about being a woman that makes hitting a golf ball slightly different. Namely having much wider hips/lower pelvis than guys. Seems like all the PGA guys have super narrow hips.

Obviously, and thankfully, the women are built differently. Though I know some very athletic females have very narrow hips.

I have no idea on whether they all do or not with regards to the ball positioning, but I can tell you they do not compress it at all so their ball position might need to be a little different. Yes the women might get good distance relative to how slow they swing, but they have nowhere near the distance the men have. They do not make perfect contact at all either.

Womens swings are much slower due to strength wouldn't ya think? They have to really sweep the club away with the whole body as opposed to a faster twitch muscle getting involved like a Sneds or somebody.

I personally don't think that most of the men are narrow hipped. You might be thinking of a Tiger type here but I don't think that is the norm. Almost all of the young guns are very strong and athletic, but I don't think of them as a wide shoulder narrow hip type. Adam Scott is a perfect example. That dude is ripped but doesn't have a small waist at all. His core is very thick which in turn actually makes him look like he has a dumpy ass when in fact he is lean and strong a ****.

You forgot the no hoemo at the end.

This sounds right to me. Less speed=less spin, need to launch it higher to get distance, ball up in stance to hit it with less shaft lean.

you dont think girls like brittany lincicome, lexi thompson, and some of the other bigger and more athletic girls compress the ball even a little bit?

they do avg over 270yd drives.

Compression is something I have trouble visualizing with the shorter clubs. How does a lofted wedge compress the ball in the same way a driver does? Does it mean that the wedge is essentially delofted and smothers the ball against the turf? Compression is easier to visualize (and witness in slo mo) with the longer clubs.

Btw, where is the correct ball position in the stance for wedges, if there is one? To achieve compression, if it exists with wedges, and also spin.

This is not true. They compress the ball fine, just not to the degree that men do bc of decreased speeds.

And YourBoss is right, a higher launch with less spin will give them more distance in general with the keys being less shaft lean(more loft at impact) and shallower angle of attack(higher launch and less spin). Putting it farther up in your stance will help you accomplish both of these things.

And yes, you cannot compress a wedge as much as a driver. The amount of compression is dictated by spin loft, which is your dynamic loft(loft at impact) + your AngleOfAttack.

So with a driver you may come to impact with 11* of loft and an angle of attack of +3*. Your spin loft would be 14

On the flip side with your wedge, most probably deloft it quite a bit to say 40* from the stock 48* and you are hitting down on it 5*. Well now our spin loft is 40 + (-5) = 35

The higher your spin loft, the less you compress it.

Since women's weakest part of their body is the forearm/wrist, they can't hit down as hard as a typical man. Most LPGA players use body rotation to create speed/power. Their hips are wider & lower so that generates power for them. There are a few PGA guys with pretty small hips (ever see Anthony Kim up close? My 9 yo butt is bigger!).

NXT explained compression perfectly - the less spin loft == the more compression/speed given a center face hit. But, the example is backwards - more upward with less loft = less spin loft, more downward would create a bigger differential. For example a 10* driver at level AoA = 10* spin loft, 10* with 2* of forward lean & 0 AoA = 8* dynamic loft & 8* spin loft, take the same driver, lean shaft forward 2* (8* dynamic loft) & swing up 3 degrees = 5* spin loft.

So the wedge above would actually be 45* spin loft and the driver would be 8*.

Spin loft is dynamic loft Minus AoA. so a negative AoA would be added, not subtracted. Hope that makes sense.

Oh yea oops. MINUS. Thx Doc

Also re: women's hips

One of their biggest problems outside of not being as strong as men generally, is that their hips are more flexible by design(for child bearing) and it prevents them from maintaining a solid lower body.

Clearly yes they compress the ball, I was obviously exaggerating for the sake of being sexist. Everything I speak of is with regards to the best male professionals vs the best female professionals, and in that regard the women DO NOT compress the ball. That is why they have to do what you so eloquently describe to get max distance for their ability and relative lack of strength. They are aiming to stop the ball with a combination of trajectory and some spin due to lack of awesomeness (my scientific description).

Compression as most people think of it is complete nonsense.

Can you tell which of these images were from the fastest club head? The slowest club head?









All of these images are from different swing speeds ranging from very fast to very slow. The amount of "compression" is basically indistinguishable.

Straight from Titleist website:
Every golfer compresses the golf ball on every shot. The differences in the amount of compression across driver swing speeds are virtually indistinguishable. There is a common misconception that a player must match the compression of the golf ball to his or her swing speed. No single element of golf ball design determines the golf ball’s performance or distance. Titleist Golf Ball R&D designs with multiple construction elements (such as core size, chemistry, hardness, number and type of intermediate layers, cover material and thickness, dimple design, etc.) to achieve specific golf ball performance characteristics. All of these elements work together to determine a golf ball’s performance. Compression is simply a result of this process and is a test of the relative softness of a golf ball which relates to how firm or soft a golf ball feels to a golfer. While there is no performance benefit to choosing a specific compression, many golfers (regardless of swing speed) do have feel preferences. Golfers who prefer softer feel may prefer lower compression golf balls.



The only difference between men and women is speed. And the amount of speed you contact the ball with dictates how you should most efficiently strike the golf ball to use the club as efficiently as possible.

Assuming exactly similar conditions (spin rate, ground condition, club, ball, landing surface, swing speed), how much will a ball with a higher trajectory spin on landing compared to a ball with a lower trajectory?

A good bit. Trackman actually measures that, it's called "landing angle" I think.

The problem is that shots with the most spin are generally lower trajectory and higher shots have a bit less spin.

I'm confused by your answer. You first seem to be saying that the higher trajectory shot will spin more, but then say that the lower trajectory spins more? Am I misreading something?

Thanks

Sorry.

If you take 2 exact same spin rates, the ball with the higher trajectory and thus landing at a steeper angle will spin more.
Easy way to think of it is a shot to elevated green vs a shot to a green that is downhill. If you hit the same club into each it's harder to stop the ball to the elevated green and to the downhill green it's much easier to get the ball to spin back.

There's the answer to your question. However let's say you are going to hit 2 shots with the same club, a high shot and a low shot. Generally the higher shot will have a lower spin rate than the low shot.

How a ball reacts on the green is influenced by 2 factors, spin rate and landing angle. Just wanted to be clear that all high shots don't necessarily spin the most, bc they generally has lower spin rates than their lower flighted counterparts.

I don't think you could have exact same conditions and have a higher & lower flight - something would need to be different - either launch angle, spin rate, spin loft, etc. A ball will deflect at the angle it lands - a ball coming in at 39* will deflect off the surface at 39*, a ball landing at 90* (straight down) will bounce up at 90*, however, to get different land angles, something would be different at impact. Spin rates are determined at impact, which determines height, not the other way around.

Why not? Imagine a ball spitting machine, or cannon, or something that keeps all the variables constant. The only thing it changes is the launch angle. According to Nxt, the one coming in at a steeper angle will spin more. If I understand correctly, you are saying the opposite is true?

Well, a cannon is much different than a club hitting a ball - launch conditions dictate spin & trajectory. The spin loft will determine how much spin is created - if all things are exactly the same, there would not be a difference, so you couldn't get a different spin rate. To change spin rates something would need to change at impact - either contact on the face (lower face contact = more spin, higher = less spin), but by changing that factor they are not exactly the same. If you take iron byron and every factor is equal, all shots will be the same - if you change the launch angle, other factors will change. If you're asking if a higher ball will spin more than a lower ball, but both have identical spin rates, then your answer is they both spin the same since the spin rate is identical. If you want to know which will roll further with the same exact spin, the lower shot will roll further because of the rebound I mentioned before. However those impact positions would have to be different to create different shots.

What's the point of that though? Like, obviously a ball that is spinning at xxxx rpm's will stop sooner/back up more if it lands at a steeper angle. How much more depends on what it's landing on.

Here's the problem I think you're having. You're conflating spin rate with the balls reaction when it hits (what you're calling "spin").

So how the ball reacts when it hits the ground is a combination of trajectory and spin rate. Generally, balls hit with a higher trajectory will have a lower spin rate and those hit lower will have a higher spin rate and how those balls react when they hit the ground depends on where the trajectory/spin falls on that continuum.

I still don't understand why it's impossible for everything but the launch angle to be the same. Imagine someone hitting off a flat surface vs. someone hitting from a 30° incline. Now everything except the launch angle is identical. Simple question - which ball will spin more violently on impact?

I have a theory that women golfers swings are optimized for better launch angles due to them comparatively playing longer courses than men.

For instance using this chart http://www.pga.com/pga-and-usga-step...ard-initiative the average pga driving distance of 285 yards ends up right at a recommended course length of 7300ish yards. About what the PGA men play.

The women however only average drives of about 250, which by the same chart should have them playing courses of about 6300 yards in length. But the average LPGA course length is 6500 yards.

Therefore we get situations where the women optimize for distance and the men optimize for accuracy. Play to the conditions.

Once you change the launch angle you have changed your original question "exact same conditions" - just like your cannon example - if you raise the cannon, you are changing the launch angle - the cannon will fire differently - it is NOT the same conditions. Unfortunately, if you change the launch angle with the same club/conditions, you have changed other things as well. If you want to know about spin, I can explain how it is created and what factors influence it, however, you asked about exact same spin rates and then asked which would spin more. Well, you answered your question - they are the exact same spin rates.

I've only read a bit of this so maybe I'm off here, but who cares if you have a cannon launching a ball? I think the answer to your question is that a ball landing at a steeper angle with the exact same amount of spin as a ball that is landing at a flatter angle will move back towards the player more. Whether that angle is created via a golf ball shooting mega-cannon or via a person on an uphill lie.

I think what you are missing is the cannon is irrelevant as you don't play golf with a cannon and the uphill lie scenario is not identical impact conditions.

Also, you are thinking in terms of spin and I think you want to actually know which ball will move backwards the most. Those are not the same thing.