Thanks for the bump, I think it gives myself a lot of insight on what I've been doing wrong and some misconceptions I had.

Thanks

i bumped it cuz i just linked it in yr thread!

As a mechanical engineer, I approve of this thread and that D-plane guy

Glad to see lot's of people are getting their head around the D-plane & understanding true ball-flight laws. Remember, all these are based on center-faced hits - if the ball is hit off-center many different things can happen. If you haven't been on a trackman, it's worth it to see your numbers, it can give you a much greater understanding of how the numbers interact with each other. One of the best videos regarding d-plane/ball flight laws is by my buddy Joseph Mayo - he & Grant Waite are partners and he posted a video a couple months ago that is really good regarding ball flight.

As a trackman owner & d-plane instructor myself, I'm happy to answer any questions you might have regarding numbers or how to change them.

On a side note, we have some very cool research developing on low, spinning wedges and what kind of numbers produce those shots. I'll be happy to share what we're finding if anyone is interested.

Understanding the ball flight & working on a trackman can make a huge difference in your game in a very short period of time. It's really understanding the physics and realizing that Fact trumps Feel.

I'm interested in these low spinny wedge shots. I'll hit one randomly every once in awhile that comes off very low and just feels like the club "threw" the ball off the face and hits and stops dead.

Biggest influences we are finding are: shallow angle of attack (letting the club "bruise" the ground, not gauge a divot), large amount of shaft lean (around 10 degrees), and low contact on the face of the club. Many players have been able to get more consistency by practicing with a less lofted club and working on coming in very shallow while keeping the handle very far ahead of the face. This will help the ball contact lower on the face. Obviously, clean, sharp grooves and a tour caliber ball increase spin as well. We are doing more research on turf conditions and the effect on spin on the wedge shots. Most players feel that firm conditions will increase spin, but have been able to get some great numbers from advanced players on softer turf and, in some cases, out of very light rough, with the proper spin loft. Spin loft is dynamic loft - angle of attack, which means that the common thought of hitting down on the ball will create more spin is simply not true. By moving the ball further back in the stance will create more angle of attack, but the dynamic loft will be offset by a similar amount, so spin loft will be unchanged. The other big factor is speed - more speed with the conditions above (primarily spin loft)will create more spin.

cool stuff. The contact low in the face is interesting and makes me think the resulting shaft flex might be involved in the results somehow.

this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-89M1vt66FA

Yep. Joe is a great guy & we trade a lot of info on Trackman. Enjoy.

We are doing some testing on shafts. Right now, I'm finding an addition 400-600 rpms with the KBS Hi-Rev shaft over others. I've only tested it with a few people and a couple heads, but it is consistently producing higher spin. Good players are seeing it almost spin back on 30 foot pitches. Looking forward to seeing how it performs across the board.

Another piece is friction - I mentioned clean, sharp grooves, and a good ball, but particles of sand can also increase spin dramatically (tight sandy soil).

I love reading all that trackmans stuff, all the ball flights theory etc but I cannot hit a ball straight and have a constant good solid contact. so should I even bother about all that?
I feel like my theoretical knowledge is miles ahead of my practice skills

(btw both coaches at my golf course teach to hit a draw/fade with a club head starting directly at target line...
should I say something to them?
one of them is also my coach and I'm starting to have a doubt)

so these kbs hi rev shafts would be better for your wedges? i can see using them for 60 and 56 wedges if you want more spin on non full shots. but what would be the benefit in using them for mid irons and rest of set? wouldnt the extra spin produce a very high trajectory? i prefer a more piercing, flatter one. i ask because i was about to reshaft a couple of my wedges.

thanks

dont know if you want to get into a debate with them. especially if they are real old and stuck in the past. i dont take lessons because the real good teachers are too expensive and the local teaching pros are usually full of it. they either are lazy and dont keep up with all the new data out there, or they are old stubborn farts who think everything should be done the traditional way. they might be using their outdated method of shaping shots because it works for them, BUT they are def. making in swing adjustments so that at impact their face is slightly open for draws and closed for fades regardless of where the face was at address.(in relation to target line)

if he is your coach and you have been going to him for a while now, assuming you have not just started playing, he should have address the issue of why your not hitting shots straight. if he has you trying out a bunch of different things i would say stop going to him. he should have either noticed something in your set up or your swing that is causing your crooked shots and have you working on drills to fix that issue.

I would definitely address it with them. Ask them politely how a ball that starts on-line with a square face cannot over-curve. If the ball is starting at the target and curves, it will be moving AWAY from the target. A big part of curving the ball is keeping it on one side of the target (for a RH player, a fade should always stay left of the target, and a draw should stay right of it), if the face is square at impact any curve will move the ball further from the target.

If they can't come up with an answer, I'd probably look elsewhere for instruction. There is too much proven data that shows face angle impacts starting direction of at least 85% - if they are not on the same page, I'd personally find another instructor that understands what you know.

I wouldn't recommend them for anything other than wedges.

I'm not really sure how to take this.

this is an amazing thread, thanks to everyone who contributed

i assume from your posts and threads on this forum that you are a very knowledgeable instructor. however it is unfortunate that i must inform you, if you haven't already heard, well informed instructors such as yourself are few and far between, from my experience at least. im definately in favor of proper instruction.

this is my second year golfing, started out as a 23handicap took some lessons to help my swing (very flat, huge slice problem, come from hockey background) reading this thread with a few lessons mixed in helped me so much since i knew about 80% of what the instructor was talking about during our lesson so that we cuold focus on other things. that being said, i went from a 23 to 14 hdcp in 3 months time. my goal for the rest of this season is to try to cut my handy cap to 10 or less, and then the next season to cut another 5 strokes.

My question...i know this is ball "flight" laws. but would the swing path/ clubface laws apply to putting aswell?

Clubface will control at least 85% of the starting direction of a putt. Since there is no flight, slice/hook don't really apply. Path could put a very small amount of spin axis on a putt causing it to not roll end-over-end, but if putts are not starting online, check aim first, then face at impact. Many times, in putting, if the path is off, it can be corrected by face awareness. I think I might have a youtube video showing the face/path relationship in putting. Should be on my channel (rstocke). If not, I'll try to get it posted.

Heel shots with putters tend to move the ball left (RH player), and toe shots right - which is different from full swing.

Since the goal of a putt is to roll the ball straight along a line, end over end, a square face and 0 path at impact is preferred.

will take a look at home and subscribe, cant watch youtube videos at work because we are monitored

buuuuuump because it has been referenced in about 5 threads recently.

Might as well just sticky this thread.

i like these laws but i think golfers (myself included) have alot of trouble getting the swing path correct and hitting the ball solidly at same time

^
+1