TY I'll try that. I didnt really want to clog this thread with personal help but Im too curious about this not to ask.

What would cause the club face to be so inconsistant? I would have assumed that if my grip, alignment, and swing path are consistant the club face would stay pretty consistant at impact. I guess that is wrong though unless Im changing my grip or alignment with out realizing it. Would the release point being inconsistant change the club face at impact with out changing the swing path much?

Not sure what your handicap is, but the face would probably be inconsistent from a lack of confidence and too much flip at impact. The faster you can turn the body the more stability the face can have. Think of how a power hitter in baseball looks at impact. They don't hit it out of the park by having flippy wrist action at impact. They have the body completely turned out of the way and hammer pulls out of the park. Get yourself to hammer the ball with your body and get the hands out of the release.

As always...maybe.

Thanks.

15 hadicap. Probably could easily get to a 10-12 based on my skill (or lack there of) if I played smart instead of trying to reach ever par 5 in 2 and every <310 yard par 4 in 1.

Found a new trick yesterday; alot of my irons from 165yds in were left of green by 10 yds or so. Straight line drive pull everytime did not matter if i lined up for a fade or straight on with my feet. had face aimed at stick or a touch right everytime.... No mis****s all solid

http://www.trackman.dk/download/news...ewsletter7.pdf

not sure if this has been linked, but a pretty sweet article that evens gives % relationships for how much face vs path affects starting line

This is all you need to know, watch this video. This man, James Leitz knows "why the ball goes where it goes" better than anyone in the world. He speaks at Trackman users conferences not only nationwide, but around the world. He made a model that shows all possibilities of ball flight and how the club head moves to create the intended ball flight. The PGA ballflight laws are not wrong, they are a great starting tool. This man just shows how to make the ball curve left with an open face and make the ball curve right with a closed face for a right handed palyer.
http://trackman.dk/Media/Videos/Jame...mes-dplane.mp4

this is impossible to say if you believe in the "new" ball flight laws.

They are not wrong, they are just not as precise as needed to be to show all the possibilities

they are fundamentally wrong in that they believe that the path of the club dictates the starting position of a shot, when TrackMan has proven that the face of the club accounts for 85% of the balls starting direction.

have heard that multiple times and agree with it... what does TM say about other 15% though??? Havent heard that yet....

The ball starts somewhere between where the face is pointed and where the path is headed, with face being the dominant variable. It's a sliding scale based on club head speed and loft, but again, always strongly skewed to face angle.

The old PGA laws teach it almost exactly opposite that, and are completely wrong.

So to hit a draw, I should point the face to the right and swing to the right inside out but less than the face and more than the target while keeping my feet slanted toward the side I want to start the ball on??

No. Swing to the right more than the face of the club. You want hook spin.

Gracias senor.

Hey, great stuff! But does the timing of the hip rotation matter? I saw bran del C with Matt Ryan on golf channel saying fire hips hard (and I presumed early) to hit a fade.. Is it less or later hip turn for draw?

I am curious about OP observation too. Watching mini tour in canada seems like 3 or 4 iron start lower, climb steadily and then hang forever. 3 woods are amazing to watch too

Would to love to see camerashot from above golfer become more standard

hey guys-

just wanted to stop in and say that i read this thread last night and jus went out and had the best range session of my life. i am currently a 10 cap that has been playing seriously over the last few months after never breaking 90 previously in my life. i hit the ball a long way but quite inconsistently and have never had a formal lesson.

prior to reading this thread i was for some reason under the false assumption that the impact position of the clubface was one of the primary factors shaping the flight of the ball. clearly when i would start spraying the ball right or hooking i would start messing with my release like crazy and have very inconsistent results. i jus went out and was messing around with my swing path and jus trying to square the clubface everytime and was having awesome results, working the ball whichever way i wanted!

just wanted to say thanks a lot to ship and all the others who posted in the thread! i think that understanding the ball flight laws is going to really help my progression as a player.

This makes me happy....and that is hard to do.

I also have greatly benefitted from this thread. Giant pull seems to be gone... And moved from just blindly hitting from inside. Got me into leaving club face open or flipping. No in-between

hey, can anyone please help with interpreting this article? relates irons and driver to angle of attack and horizontal swing angle (correct terminology?)

seems like he goes over it too fast and/or the diagram is mislabelled

3jack.blogspot.com/2009/12/trackman-translations-part-ii.html

what's the basic premise? the more you hit down with an iron the more you have to swing from the inside. and seems like this is even more the case with a driver (although you wouldn't be hitting down at a huge angle)......

wondering as i seem to to take huge divots with shorter irons and pull the ball quite badly sometimes (and seldom push the ball)

and does this mean if you really hit up on driver then you want outside to in contact??

thanks in advance! i'm going to look for other articles that expain it. maybe trackman newsletter.

not sure why that first article doesn't show up as a link. and i assume this link won't come out properly either

here's another article that explains it better but still i'm confused.

http://www.trackman.dk/download/news...ewsletter5.pdf

and, for 6 iron with 5 degree downward hit you seem to need to swing outside to in (NOT from the inside)

gonna look at this some more

here's the crux of it from trackman:

I can try: We can say that with the driver you need the same value
for attack angle and horizontal swing plane in order to obtain a 0°
club path – for example if your attack angle is +3°, the horizontal
swing plane needs to be +3° to obtain a club path of 0°. And for
irons it is half effect – for example if attack angle is -4°, the horizontal
swing plane needs to be -2° to obtain zero club path. In short,
aim left when hitting down on the ball and aim right when hitting
up upon the ball. And remember when I say ‘aim left’ I mean the
swing plane, the face angle should always be aligned towards the
target line.

my comment: and then they go into ball position. the further you play it back, the more you should open your stance......... so i was wrong. aim out with ascending driver. aim in with descending irons. (not sure about descending driver which i thought trackman claimed pga pro's do hit on average)

anyway, fascinating stuff (although mostly i have to fix shorter iron pulls right now)

It's simple. Youtube D-plane. Here is a long Manzella video that goes into detail.

When the club is moving down, that adds an outward component to the path. So a swing that is moving perfectly inline with the target but down towards the ground will actually be slightly in-to-out as it effects the curvature of the ball. In Trackman terms, this means a swing with a 0 degree face angle and 0 degree path will actually result in a slight pull draw.

When the club is moving up the opposite is true. A out-to-in component is added.

So in practice, to hit an iron perfectly straight, your face would need to be a 0 degrees to target and path would be out-to-in (left) a couple degrees to counteract the issue we are talking about.

To hit driver straight, when hit on the upswing, the path needs to be a couple degrees in-to-out (right).

This is relatively high level stuff that most people shouldn't worry about. Talking about minute differences really. And without Trackman you would never know to the specificity you needed to anyway to figure this out.

Your Boss, thanks and i agree that sticking with the general stuff is probably good advice. the general idea of these ball flight laws has improved my driving immensely .... but i have noticed that when i pull irons i may then try to hit more from the inside which seems like the opposite of what i should be doing. thereby making my pulls worse.

Yes, if you are hitting pulls trying to swing more from the inside is only going to turn the pulls into pull hooks. But it's not because of D-plane really, that's just basic ball flight laws. Your angle of attack (AoA) doesn't change significantly if your horizontal path moves from 0 degrees to 3 degrees in-to-out. So the horizontal component that gets added by the downward movement of the club doesn't change.

A pull (so a ball that starts left of target) is caused because the club face is aimed left of target at impact. Period.

So from there you can do two things really. You can work on getting the face more square so the ball starts more on line. Or you can try to get your path more left (so opposite of swinging from inside), so the face is actually open to the path (but still closed to target) and then you will be hitting pull cuts.