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Old 05-31-2017, 09:48 AM   #126
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

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Re: wrist flexion. One question I have about Sergio is that his wrist feels bowed, like bent forward.
Sergio's wrist is not bowed IMO. His left wrist stays basically flat through his entire swing. At least until after impact. His left wrist only bends up in the backswing. His right wrist gets extremely cupped I think on the way down which is what gives him so much lag. I personally can't bow my wrist that much because of a medical issue with my wrists which sucks for my golf swing.
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Basically what I'm saying is this: if I am going to bend my left wrist in the backswing, the options are bend it forward, bend it back, don't bend it along the "east and west" plane.
Watching your videos, I would not suggest changing the way your wrists are working in the backswing. Your wrist position at the top is very good. For you, it is what they are doing on the way down. The only issue with your backswing IMO is that you are too flat and you go back too far. Neither of which are a huge deal, but you will gain accuracy by shortening the backswing and I can guarantee you won't lose much if any distance as long as your downswing is good.

Also, it is probably impossible to get into the same position that Sergio does for someone like you or I. I am a low single digit handicapper and I am closer to where you are by a long shot than where he is when it comes to the lag. The part that makes the difference is where you are at impact. You tend to let your left wrist break down and cup or let it bend west I guess as you are looking at it right around impact. That should never happen at any point in the golf swing, especially at impact. Not even after you hit the ball should your wrist cup. I notice in the last videos that you are doing it later than you were in your first videos, but you need to get rid of that part all together by turning your wrists over instead of cupping the left wrist.
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Old 05-31-2017, 01:42 PM   #127
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

One other piece of advice might be to try some practice without a ball. Sounds like you are beating buckets at the range but sometimes that leads to too much focus on the ball and on the results of each particular swing. Practicing without a ball sometimes can help with ingraining feel/movements and helps eliminate the hit instinct. A mirror can be helpful. There are a lot of good impact position drills on youtube that can be worked on without a ball. Your swing is really good and if you can get the impact position down/stop casting you will probably see dramatic improvement in your striking right away.

Golf is all about feel... once you get the feel of the proper impact position and the flush contact/compression with the ball, it is amazing how quickly your body will be able to groove it. Finding that feel in the first place is the hardest part, it's like looking for the key that will unlock the swing.
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Old 05-31-2017, 03:00 PM   #128
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

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Watching your videos, I would not suggest changing the way your wrists are working in the backswing. Your wrist position at the top is very good. For you, it is what they are doing on the way down. The only issue with your backswing IMO is that you are too flat and you go back too far. Neither of which are a huge deal, but you will gain accuracy by shortening the backswing and I can guarantee you won't lose much if any distance as long as your downswing is good.
I agree I think his wrist flex is great, I will add that I do believe that the rotation of his wrists in the backswing are a problem and are what's leading to his backswing being so flat and the club being so far behind him... which also invariably leads to issues with lag.

Aaron, hold your left arm in front of you and make a fist. Rotate your fist so that when you are doing a "thumbs up" gesture the thumb is pointing directly to your right, or 3 o'clock position. (put your thumb back afterward). That position is closer to where you are at the top. Where you should be, imo, is closer to where you'd be if your thumb was pointed just right of vertical or straight up, or about the 1 o'clock position.

That's why your backswing looks flatter than most pros. The flatness generally (and definitely does in your swing) lead to your arms getting way behind you on the backswing, which encourages you to come at the ball in more of a pushing sensation than a pull. It's hard to explain but think about it in terms of throwing a ball. Imagine you're throwing a baseball pitch, only take the ball back with your right palm facing the sky. Notice how to get things routed back you have to rotate your wrists palm counter-clockwise and are almost forced to "push" the ball toward the target. Now take the same ball and bring it back normally. Notice the difference in what your elbows/arms do during the transition. When you bring it back normally, your elbow will naturally lead your hands in order to deliver power. When you take the ball back with your palms up, your hands will try to lead the way unless there is major manipulation.

I really hope that makes sense, it's so difficult to explain but easy to feel...
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Old 05-31-2017, 03:07 PM   #129
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

So basically, Your wrists are rotating clockwise too much during your backswing, if that makes sense.
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Old 06-01-2017, 01:00 AM   #130
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

I think the reason I'm flattening like that is kinda intentional-- I feel like I don't get horizontal enough when my wrists are more upright, I wind up hitting down on the ball and my elbow unattaches. Also I was trying to kind of allow for a flattening out during the transition to help me go inside out (trying to push it a little more).
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Old 06-01-2017, 04:17 PM   #131
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

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Yeah, way too much advice with you trying to incorporate all of it. Take one piece of advice and do nothing but work on that for a week until it becomes natural. Then take another for a week. Rinse and repeat. Most players take at least two weeks before any sort of change can take effect, only reason I'm saying one week is because you're beating balls like crazy. Perhaps too much.

There's a saying, practice smarter, not harder.
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One other piece of advice might be to try some practice without a ball. Sounds like you are beating buckets at the range but sometimes that leads to too much focus on the ball and on the results of each particular swing. Practicing without a ball sometimes can help with ingraining feel/movements and helps eliminate the hit instinct. A mirror can be helpful. There are a lot of good impact position drills on youtube that can be worked on without a ball. Your swing is really good and if you can get the impact position down/stop casting you will probably see dramatic improvement in your striking right away.

Golf is all about feel... once you get the feel of the proper impact position and the flush contact/compression with the ball, it is amazing how quickly your body will be able to groove it. Finding that feel in the first place is the hardest part, it's like looking for the key that will unlock the swing.
Eh, I wouldn't say I'm just beating buckets, but I also think this is kind of the point of my development where I really need (relatively smart) reps. I just haven't really played that much, hitting these 2k balls I've hit in the last two weeks is probably equivalent to the amount I've hit the last several years combined. There's a lot of "feel" that I'll probably correct myself by just swinging a lot, I'm athletic enough with decent enough hand eye and I think at this point I understand the physics of the swing well enough to make some smart corrections.

But yea while reading this thread I tend to watch a few videos randomly, kind of practice with a club at my standing desk, etc. I'm also thinking about it a fair bit, I don't think I'm valuing quantity over quality or anything (though I admit sometimes I just grab a bucket and hit a bunch in a row, focusing on just the hips through and a little bit of weight transfer).

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Old 06-01-2017, 04:20 PM   #132
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

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Sergio's wrist is not bowed IMO. His left wrist stays basically flat through his entire swing. At least until after impact. His left wrist only bends up in the backswing. His right wrist gets extremely cupped I think on the way down which is what gives him so much lag. I personally can't bow my wrist that much because of a medical issue with my wrists which sucks for my golf swing.


Watching your videos, I would not suggest changing the way your wrists are working in the backswing. Your wrist position at the top is very good. For you, it is what they are doing on the way down. The only issue with your backswing IMO is that you are too flat and you go back too far. Neither of which are a huge deal, but you will gain accuracy by shortening the backswing and I can guarantee you won't lose much if any distance as long as your downswing is good.

Also, it is probably impossible to get into the same position that Sergio does for someone like you or I. I am a low single digit handicapper and I am closer to where you are by a long shot than where he is when it comes to the lag. The part that makes the difference is where you are at impact. You tend to let your left wrist break down and cup or let it bend west I guess as you are looking at it right around impact. That should never happen at any point in the golf swing, especially at impact. Not even after you hit the ball should your wrist cup. I notice in the last videos that you are doing it later than you were in your first videos, but you need to get rid of that part all together by turning your wrists over instead of cupping the left wrist.
When I'm chipping (yea I know, different subject, we'll get there), I am thinking of holding the wrist position through the chip-- should it be almost like that I guess (though ultimately releasing it through impact or you wouldn't have a backswing)?
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Old 06-01-2017, 04:37 PM   #133
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

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When I'm chipping (yea I know, different subject, we'll get there), I am thinking of holding the wrist position through the chip-- should it be almost like that I guess (though ultimately releasing it through impact or you wouldn't have a backswing)?
Yes, basically the same, but when hitting with a full swing the force just doesn't allow you to hold it. That is why you should just let your right wrist turn over your left as your arms fully straighten out.

Here's another drill that may help. Set a ball about 2-3 feet in front of the ball you are hitting directly in line with your target. After impact your arms should both be straight and stretched to the max and your club shaft should be pointing at that ball you set out there. This will be hard to do if your left wrist breaks down. I'm sure there's a video out there of this, but...

EDIT. This is not a bad explanation...


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Old 06-03-2017, 01:41 PM   #134
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

6/3: 2 buckets

I tried to take some half swings and some punch out type swings and really hold it through impact, **** that's hard. Occasionally I'll make half decent contact but usually I just have a terrible miss, it just doesn't quite work, I'm kind of "holding" my wrists there which seems wrong. I'm messing around a bit to see how different things feel. Hitting a dozen balls like a foot in front of my front foot is fun, not sure if it's helping but I kinda like it. Taking videos at this point just to chronicle how, if at all, things are changing day to day. Gonna do some short game stuff later I think



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Old 06-04-2017, 12:08 AM   #135
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

man that range just looks so awesome
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Old 06-04-2017, 09:26 PM   #136
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

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man that range just looks so awesome
What range? That's just a printed tarp I bring around with me and hang up behind my videos

6/3: I hit a second PM bucket

6/4: 2.5 buckets, all with wedges. At some point I hit a string of really, really good shots. Overall pretty pleased, misses just getting so much more manageable.

Did ~30 minutes of chipping after watching some videos online. I still suck at it, just can't find a consistent contact point, missing both directions.
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Old 06-04-2017, 09:50 PM   #137
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

That guy behind you needs a lot of work.
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Old 06-05-2017, 09:58 AM   #138
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

Everything about your swing looks great except for the breakdown on the downswing. Your turn is excellent, many beginners sway back on the backswing but your head stays in the same spot and you seem to have the natural rotational "turn in a barrel" down, which is awesome because that is one of the hardest parts for beginners/high handicappers to master. So you are well on your way.

You just need to focus on holding the leverage on the downswing. On the backswing you are loading up the leverage nicely but are dumping it halfway down. This often comes from the hit impulse or the desire to "hit" the ball. What you really want is to "collect" the ball at the bottom of the circle... in other words let the ball just get in the way. If you do this you will keep your arms more passive and hold the leverage until impact.

Swing looks really good overall, really just a few tweaks to the downswing and you will start feeling that compression where the ball just gets in the way and feels almost weightless when you hit it.
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Old 06-05-2017, 12:34 PM   #139
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

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Everything about your swing looks great except for the breakdown on the downswing. Your turn is excellent, many beginners sway back on the backswing but your head stays in the same spot and you seem to have the natural rotational "turn in a barrel" down, which is awesome because that is one of the hardest parts for beginners/high handicappers to master. So you are well on your way.

You just need to focus on holding the leverage on the downswing. On the backswing you are loading up the leverage nicely but are dumping it halfway down. This often comes from the hit impulse or the desire to "hit" the ball. What you really want is to "collect" the ball at the bottom of the circle... in other words let the ball just get in the way. If you do this you will keep your arms more passive and hold the leverage until impact.

Swing looks really good overall, really just a few tweaks to the downswing and you will start feeling that compression where the ball just gets in the way and feels almost weightless when you hit it.
Thanks, yea, I keep working on random timing things and just kinda feeling like my arms/hands are very neutral and 'behind' the rest of my torso... Idk, it feels pretty good when I hit it right now, but I don't want to get too used to it without really getting the lag down. I'm gonna take a few more videos of my swing and see if any tweaks do anything to it. Also will keep doing a few random drills
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Old 06-05-2017, 06:33 PM   #140
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

Does anyone else thing trying to hold the lag angle is a recipe for disaster?

I think it should be natural--there are things you can do but imo holding isn't it...shrugs
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Old 06-05-2017, 07:51 PM   #141
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

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Does anyone else thing trying to hold the lag angle is a recipe for disaster?

I think it should be natural--there are things you can do but imo holding isn't it...shrugs
Yeah I think it is something that should just happen naturally... casting is usually the result of doing something that isn't natural because you think you have to "hit" the ball (or to compensate for some other flaw in the swing). When I say "hold the leverage" what I really mean is let the downswing happen naturally and it will happen on its own.

Better approach is to focus on "stop casting" (eliminate a flaw) rather than "hold the lag" (try to make yourself "do" something). Actively trying to hold the lag often leads to tension and a bunch more swing thoughts which only makes things worse. The lag happens on its own.

There are a lot of good "stop casting" drills and vids on youtube which may be worth watching.

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Old 06-05-2017, 08:11 PM   #142
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

I've read a ton of golf instruction books and I am a fan of many of the old-school instructors like De la Torre and Knudson and Percy Boomer, who were all about developing a natural rhythmic swing and less about positions, wrist angles, etc. A lot of today's instruction is too technical and leads to paralysis by analysis imo, but maybe some people learn better that way.
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Old 06-06-2017, 01:53 AM   #143
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

6/5: Played a round, played really poorly, shot 107. Lost about a dozen balls, probably had something like 10 total mis hits, maybe had 1 or 2 last round. Kinda random.
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Old 06-06-2017, 10:40 AM   #144
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

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I've read a ton of golf instruction books and I am a fan of many of the old-school instructors like De la Torre and Knudson and Percy Boomer, who were all about developing a natural rhythmic swing and less about positions, wrist angles, etc. A lot of today's instruction is too technical and leads to paralysis by analysis imo, but maybe some people learn better that way.
Yea, idk, I kind of like the way my swing feels at times, though there are still things I'm unsure about, or bad habits I slip back into, but it seems kinda unforgivable if I don't correct the wrist thing from a physics POV while it's still relatively new to me
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Old 06-06-2017, 11:46 AM   #145
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

the "holding the lag" is interesting..... how did garcia or someone like sadlowski get into having such massive lag on the way down?

bobby clampett's book - which is great - is all about simple implementation of holding the lag. i agree the subconsciously holding lag anywhere other than experimental on the driving range is a recipe for disaster.

another thing is a stronger grip - consistent with opening the hips aggressively - makes it so the lag is maintained somewhat naturally.

on the hips opening, someone like rory or jamie sadlowski i think open so aggressively and early that their hips are recoiling right after hitting the ball. i'd go so far as to say they are recoiling right "before" they hit driver but not sure about that.
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Old 06-06-2017, 02:23 PM   #146
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

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Does anyone else thing trying to hold the lag angle is a recipe for disaster?

I think it should be natural--there are things you can do but imo holding isn't it...shrugs
big disaster, you can't get useful LAG without a good pivot, which has been stated a few times ITT as a problem of his, as it is mine. Not easy to fix either in my experience, lot of other things in a swing can be solved or improved somewhat quickly it seems, getting those damned hips to fire has a lot of factors and for me has been a multiple year project I'm just finally making progress on.

Also get a launch monitor of some sort, I know you got $$, the feedback you get from it is better than smashing balls at the range imo. I spent 2 summers and probably 200 + buckets guessing on the range, maybe it's just been the timing of it, but a few months with a launch monitor has been more beneficial by lots.
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Old 06-06-2017, 02:24 PM   #147
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

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the "holding the lag" is interesting..... how did garcia or someone like sadlowski get into having such massive lag on the way down?

bobby clampett's book - which is great - is all about simple implementation of holding the lag. i agree the subconsciously holding lag anywhere other than experimental on the driving range is a recipe for disaster.

another thing is a stronger grip - consistent with opening the hips aggressively - makes it so the lag is maintained somewhat naturally.

on the hips opening, someone like rory or jamie sadlowski i think open so aggressively and early that their hips are recoiling right after hitting the ball. i'd go so far as to say they are recoiling right "before" they hit driver but not sure about that.
Yeah strong grip will get you absolutely nowhere if your hip pivot isn't working.

Tbh I don't think it's good strat for someone like Ae to be thinking about "lag" at all. When your fundamentals improve Lag will come with it. I know I personally wasted a lot of time trying to get more when I should of been spending that effort on the hip pivot and other things.

a few things that have worked for me recently

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmb1KetN3io&t=442s
- You've eliminated hip sway which is a good start, now I'd focus almost exclusively on starting the downswing with your lower body, and starting it a smidge BEFORE reaching the top of your backswing.
- A thing recently that has helped my hip pivot is squatting a bit on the downswing, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psy-bWcdUq0

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Old 06-06-2017, 02:25 PM   #148
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

I saw Sergio explain it as from the top of the backswing he feels like he is pulling the chain of a ceiling fan straight down with both hands. Basically you're keeping the handle of the club pointed down towards the ground and towards the ball as long as possible.

Your last videos of "half swings" look more like a full swing to me. You really need to try to pull the handle down and reconnect your right elbow to your side ASAP in the downswing. You shouldn't start to straighten the right arm until your elbow is touching your side. As someone else said, your swing looks great except for that part. From the top imagine a laser beam coming out of the grip end of your shaft. You want to point that laser at the ground during your downswing and make the laser follow the path you want your club head to travel once it gets there. You really just need to get your right elbow in tight to your side. This will help keep the lag naturally.
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Old 06-06-2017, 03:30 PM   #149
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

Interesting about the grip, squatting, and pointing the shaft at the ground. I think for me it's why I have generally never had to worry about it too much because I've always had a strong grip and fast hips. Anyway this guy, who I really think has swings like Hogan should have, talks about the same things in his video. He seems like a bit of a nerd douche, but from what I've read he's one of the few guys that actually learned later in life and did it pretty much on his own.

He talks about how he got lag/power at around 2 minutes in. When my swing was in it's darkest moments I did exactly as he did to re-learn things... and then when I got it I never thought about it again.



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Old 06-06-2017, 11:41 PM   #150
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Re: aejones shaves 25 strokes off his game

Today I got fitted for clubs, where the guy basically said the following:

My driver is fine, it's a Taylor Made Burner from like 7ish years ago, he said the technology in the driver is actually pretty comparable to stuff out today and I probably wouldn't find too much of an upgrade. Also it has a relatively stiff shaft. He said he might take a half inch off the length.

My irons aren't stiff enough, but for whatever reason Taylor Made put this set out extra long, and that's probably the right length for me. He said they're 3.5s (I assume this is terminology you guys know, but it could be some made up crazy talk from some lunatic in Calgary) and that I should probably use 5.5-6s or maybe even 6.5s. He said they weight 95g I believe, and that stiffer ones would be 105 or more. I tried out a heavier, stiffer club and really, really liked it.

I have an M2 hybrid that I bought at the end of last season and it's waaay too flexible apparently.

It seems like I should probably just buy new irons..?

Also my club head speed was in the low 90s with my irons and ~105 iirc with my driver. He said that was pretty good, within range, and on my irons I had a particularly low variance over the ~9 swings I took.

Is this guy saying things that make sense? He gave me a print out of his notes, I could upload that.
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