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Old 08-05-2013, 10:16 AM   #51
NxtWrldChamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Rod's Cousin View Post
But surely you must appreciate how monumentally more difficult it is to shoot 57 on a par 70 than to shoot 59 on a par 72, no?
Yes I realize that it's harder to be 13 under on a par 70 compared to a par 72, though I think "monumental" is a little strong. 58 on a par 70 is probably equal to 59 on par 72. That's why I think only relation to par should count.

Most people seem to be assuming that 2 par 5s from the par 72 are replaced with 2 par 4s to make it par 70, which I agree with.

However since par is irrelevant in this discussion and you are only looking at cumulative shots, I would much rather play a par 4 than a par 5.

Par 4 scoring average on Tour is roughly 4.07

Par 5 scoring average on Tour is roughly 4.67

So replacing 2 par 5s with a couple par 4s, theoretically lowers someone's final score by over a shot.

Par 72 course:
4 par 5s: scoring average 4.67
4 par 3s: scoring average 3.07
10 par 4s: scoring average 4.07
Total average: 68.63

Par 70 course:
2 par 5s
4 par 3s
12 par 4s
Total average: 67.43

Only gotta play 7.44 shots better than average get into the 50s, compared to 8.64 shots better than average on a par 72.

The place where it hurts them is their score in relation to par, but since people only care about the magical 59 number it is easier to do it on a par 70 golf course.
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:28 AM   #52
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re: 58 watch....

I agree with some of what Nxt says, but the typical converted par 5 into a par 4 is obviously nowhere near the "average" par 4 so using the 4.07 average is clearly a stretch.

Obviously in most circumstances it is easier to shoot 59 on a par 70, but not all. Duval's 59 in the desert is about as easy as they come for -13. Here is the hole by hole Recap of Duval's 59

Hole Par Shot Detail Result
No. 1 4 Driver, Pitching wedge to 5 feet Birdie
No. 2 5 Driver, 4-iron left of green, sand wedge to 3 feet Birdie
No. 3 3 6-iron to 3 feet Birdie
No. 4 4 2-iron, 9-iron to 15 feet, two-putt Par
No. 5 3 5-iron to 5 feet Birdie
No. 6 5 Driver, 5-iron, sand wedge to 30 feet, two putt Par
No. 7 4 2-iron, 7-iron to 40 feet, two-putt Par
No. 8 4 3-wood, sand wedge over the green, 3-iron chip to 6 feet Par
No. 9 4 3-wood, 8-iron to 8 feet Birdie
OUT: 31 (5-under par)
No. 10 4 3-wood, sand wedge to 5 feet Birdie
No. 11 5 Driver, 4-iron left of green, pitched to 4 inches Birdie
No. 12 3 6-iron to 2 feet Birdie
No. 13 4 3-wood, 7-iron to 12 feet, two-putt Par
No. 14 5 Driver into bunker, 5-iron, sand wedge to 10 feet Birdie
No. 15 3 8-iron to 1 foot Birdie
No. 16 4 2-iron, sand wedge to 6 inches Birdie
No. 17 3 9-iron to 20 feet, two-putt Par
No. 18 5 Driver, 5-iron to 6 feet Eagleby hole recap:
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:57 AM   #53
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re: 58 watch....

NXT, good post. You and I seem to agree for the most part. And thanks for digging up the scoring averages. I wanted to but was too lazy/didn't know where to find them.

One thing surprises me though, the par 3 scoring average I thought would be worse. I thought the par 3s played harder in relation to par than the par 4s but here it shows both are +.07.

But anyway the par 5 average proves my point that "par" is arbitrary and the scoring is not linear in relation to it.

I also agree with Ship that the converted par 4s would likely be longer and probably score higher than 4.07. As well as the 2 remaining par 5s being likely longer than average and probably play tougher than 4.67.

I think ultimately you'd want to look at a rating/slope for the course that the 59 was shot on and determine some sort of index for that day. Obviously this isn't logistically possible most or all of the time.
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:50 PM   #54
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re: 58 watch....

59 Has only be achieved 5 times on the PGA Tour

Al Geiberger: 1977 Memphis Classic (29-30), Colonial Country Club (par 72)
Chip Beck: 1991 Las Vegas Invitational (30-29), Sunrise Golf Club (par 72)
David Duval: 1999 Bob Hope Chrysler Classic (31-28), PGA West (Palmer Course) (par 72)
Paul Goydos: 2010 John Deere Classic (31-28), TPC Deere Run (par 71)
Stuart Appleby: 2010 Greenbrier Classic (28-31), The Old White Course (par 70)

I don't know about the other courses but I do know after the 2010 Greenbrier Classic they made changes to the course to make it harder and longer. So I would assume that was a reaction to the low scores in 2010 (258 total for 4 rounds) with Appleby 59 coming on the final round. The winning scores the next following years have not been that low (270 264 267). Was this because it was perceived that the course was just to easy? Can you then make the connection that the 59 at the Greenbrier was easier to achieve than the other 4 59's and the PGA tour? It is the only 59 shot on the PGA tour that was done so on a Par 70 course.
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:06 PM   #55
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re: 58 watch....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cageysmooth View Post
59 Has only be achieved 5 times on the PGA Tour

Al Geiberger: 1977 Memphis Classic (29-30), Colonial Country Club (par 72)
Chip Beck: 1991 Las Vegas Invitational (30-29), Sunrise Golf Club (par 72)
David Duval: 1999 Bob Hope Chrysler Classic (31-28), PGA West (Palmer Course) (par 72)
Paul Goydos: 2010 John Deere Classic (31-28), TPC Deere Run (par 71)
Stuart Appleby: 2010 Greenbrier Classic (28-31), The Old White Course (par 70)

I don't know about the other courses but I do know after the 2010 Greenbrier Classic they made changes to the course to make it harder and longer. So I would assume that was a reaction to the low scores in 2010 (258 total for 4 rounds) with Appleby 59 coming on the final round. The winning scores the next following years have not been that low (270 264 267). Was this because it was perceived that the course was just to easy? Can you then make the connection that the 59 at the Greenbrier was easier to achieve than the other 4 59's and the PGA tour? It is the only 59 shot on the PGA tour that was done so on a Par 70 course.
Ranking these is not difficult.

Best = Geiberger even though it was lift clean and place that day. Next best score all week was 66.

All the other courses were super easy with decades of equipment of advancement to assist.

BO
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:17 PM   #56
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re: 58 watch....

Thanks for the insight BO.
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Old 08-12-2013, 10:25 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ship---this View Post
I agree with some of what Nxt says, but the typical converted par 5 into a par 4 is obviously nowhere near the "average" par 4 so using the 4.07 average is clearly a stretch.

Obviously in most circumstances it is easier to shoot 59 on a par 70, but not all. Duval's 59 in the desert is about as easy as they come for -13. Here is the hole by hole Recap of Duval's 59

Hole Par Shot Detail Result
No. 1 4 Driver, Pitching wedge to 5 feet Birdie
No. 2 5 Driver, 4-iron left of green, sand wedge to 3 feet Birdie
No. 3 3 6-iron to 3 feet Birdie
No. 4 4 2-iron, 9-iron to 15 feet, two-putt Par
No. 5 3 5-iron to 5 feet Birdie
No. 6 5 Driver, 5-iron, sand wedge to 30 feet, two putt Par
No. 7 4 2-iron, 7-iron to 40 feet, two-putt Par
No. 8 4 3-wood, sand wedge over the green, 3-iron chip to 6 feet Par
No. 9 4 3-wood, 8-iron to 8 feet Birdie
OUT: 31 (5-under par)
No. 10 4 3-wood, sand wedge to 5 feet Birdie
No. 11 5 Driver, 4-iron left of green, pitched to 4 inches Birdie
No. 12 3 6-iron to 2 feet Birdie
No. 13 4 3-wood, 7-iron to 12 feet, two-putt Par
No. 14 5 Driver into bunker, 5-iron, sand wedge to 10 feet Birdie
No. 15 3 8-iron to 1 foot Birdie
No. 16 4 2-iron, sand wedge to 6 inches Birdie
No. 17 3 9-iron to 20 feet, two-putt Par
No. 18 5 Driver, 5-iron to 6 feet Eagleby hole recap:
This was the only live PGA event I've ever been to. Was pretty amazing watching the scoreboard on 18 grandstand as he was coming in. He makes eagle on 18 for 59 on Sunday to win the tourney by 1.
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:56 PM   #58
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re: 58 watch....

Joel Sjöholm started albatross, birdie, eagle and was -6 through 6 holes and -9 through 9 holes today. No tournament though.
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Old 08-12-2013, 05:53 PM   #59
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re: 58 watch....

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanteA View Post
Joel Sjöholm started albatross, birdie, eagle and was -6 through 6 holes and -9 through 9 holes today. No tournament though.
Wouldn't it have sounded more epic to say he was -6 through 3?
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Old 08-16-2013, 12:44 PM   #60
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re: 58 watch....

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanteA View Post
Joel Sjöholm started albatross, birdie, eagle and was -6 through 6 holes and -9 through 9 holes today. No tournament though.
What was this in then?
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Old 09-13-2013, 03:58 PM   #61
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Bump.

Furyk -9 thru 11
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:01 PM   #62
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re: 58 watch....

-10 through 12

jesus
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:11 PM   #63
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Confirmed unconscious, fluff too
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:28 PM   #64
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re: 58 watch....

-11 thru 13, par 71 so 1 under on his remaining holes = 59
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:39 PM   #65
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re: 58 watch....

57 watch.
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:39 PM   #66
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re: 58 watch....

60 watch
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:45 PM   #67
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Bogeys a par 5 too, so gross
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Old 09-13-2013, 05:04 PM   #68
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re: 58 watch....

oh snap it's back on

-11 through 16
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Old 09-13-2013, 05:04 PM   #69
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re: 58 watch....

he's almost there.
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Old 09-13-2013, 05:07 PM   #70
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re: 58 watch....

get there!
Spoiler:
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Old 09-13-2013, 05:18 PM   #71
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Dont fail him now 5 hour energy
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Old 09-13-2013, 05:22 PM   #72
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re: 58 watch....

Top it Jimmy
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Old 09-13-2013, 05:24 PM   #73
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re: 58 watch....

gjge
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Old 09-13-2013, 05:27 PM   #74
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re: 58 watch....

If someone runs him over with a Volkswagen I'll buy them endless shrimp at Red Lobster.
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Old 09-13-2013, 05:36 PM   #75
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re: 58 watch....

What was Furyk's tee time? 5 hours probably just about up, no?
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