I pretty much always recommend people only go to a game if they know someone who will make sure they get paid.

Your generalizations of Chinese is pretty lol. Almost as lol as the hyperbole in the dangers you seem to think are involved. I've even been screwed out of a large sum of money, but just lol at your take on the situation.

A poker situation like this would be just as shady in America as it is in China. There are safe places and there are not so safe places to play.

I've spent a fair amount of time in China, been in a number of different cities there. The generalization I made is, in my opinion AND as per my experiences there, pretty true of the vast majority of Chinese I've come across. At least as to how the are towards foreigners. The thing is you won't always be aware of it because they are masters of double talk, saying one thing to your face being one way when you are right in front of them and then turning around and being the complete opposite behind your back.

But ok, whatever, you're not likely to listen to me on this anyway so I guess I'll just leave you to have your own experiences with the Chinese. But mine are based off of years of experience there, and I can assure you they are not just lol.


Personally I wouldn't bother with a home game in the U.S. either, and I am a U.S. citizen, but I don't think it's true that they are exactly the same.

Sure in both cases the games may be illegal but as corrupt as the U.S. is capable of being China is far far more corrupt and blatantly so, and foreigners have next to no rights and actually no rights if the 'right' people decided you don't.

An illegal underground home game in the U.S. played by a U.S. citizen vs. an illegal underground game in China played by a foreigner, most likely on a tourist visa mind you, who is 0% Chinese, is not a citizen and probably not even a legal longer term resident.

You honestly believe the level of safety vs. danger is equal in both those situations?

If you do, that is lol.

This

Do you guys that have played in these games know fluent or near fluent Mandarin?

Not fluent, but I can understand just about any conversation that would come up regarding a poker game.

I didn't say your safety in USA would be the same, I said the situation would be just as shady. There are good places to play, and there are bad places which are dangerous. There will be both good and bad people running the games. Your racist generalizations absolutely do not apply to every Chinese person running a game. (It doesn't apply to everyone running an English school either, although a lot of people who do not do a lot of research get screwed when they come to China) As a player it's your job to figure out who is trying to screw you and who is actually trustworthy.

I have no idea what you are talking about regarding rights and being a citizen. In many cases if the police come, that is a good thing. But you seem to be really confused as to what the real dangers of playing in these games are. Your number one concern playing is that you do not get paid if you win. That has nothing to do with your rights as a foreigner in China.

If the sh it hits the fan in a U.S. underground game, yes if I don't get paid, or worse someone gets violent on me. I mean violence involving a group of guys, or weapons or both. Violence with intent to seriously injure or kill, I'm talking about here.

If that happens to me in an underground game in the U.S. I expect that, despite the game being illegal and me being involved in it, I can still get the police involved and expect that almost always they will do what's right by me. Certainly I think I can expect that the majority of the time.

In China, or any third world country that I am not a citizen of (and as far as laws and regulations go China is still 3rd world lets not kid ourselves otherwise,) I don't expect the police to do what's right by me in that same situation. I expect the majority of the time for them to do what's right by the locals over a foreigner, in this case my attacker (s).


You may have a lot of experience in China, you may have many years there under your belt. You may have some Chinese you know well, and even consider your friends.

But if you honestly believe if the sh it went down and a person or persons in the game got violent on you, and with the intent to really fu ck you up or kill you. If you honestly believe that you can rely on the police to come to your rescue there or security in the club to come to your rescue there. If you honestly believe there is a good chance of that happening, you're naive.


I'll grant you knowing the language well is big, and that will definitely clear some hurdles in those illegal underground games. But I think you greatly overestimate your physical safety once you walk in the door of one of these games. You seem to think you have rights, expectation of a certain level of safety and protection that I just don't believe you have.

You think the only thing you're risking is not getting paid the money if you win.

You are risking that.

I'm sure you are also risking your life, yes your life.


Man I got to say, that is some pretty insane rake there. I just can't believe that's a beatable game with rake like that.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

wat

eh...ok.

It's clear you think I am racist and by now you probably also think I am paranoid and overly worried about sh it that you think is either not a real threat at all, or at least not a big deal.


So whatever you're clearly going to ignore anything I write from this point on and file it away as the ravings of a racist nut.

Thing is if you knew me in person, and you knew me well you'd know I am not racist, nor paranoid not a nut.


But I really don't understand, how you can honestly feel that playing in those games is a long term good decision for you.

to use poker parlance, it's a long term negative life ev decision. You may be running above expectation so far, but eventually the results will even out and over a large enough sample I think you'll find those games just aren't worth the risks.


Here's my personal take, for myself.

In the U.S. where I am a citizen, where I fully know and understand the language, the culture and the society, I would be on the fence about playing in an underground game even if I knew for a fact it had a juicy line up in it. Truth be told I think I would end up passing on it unless someone I knew very well, and for many years could vouch for the game and even then I wouldn't be in love with the decision to play.


But instead I am in a country where I am not a citizen, it's dubious if I am even a legal resident, I have a tenuous grasp on the language the culture and the societal mores, and I am a foreigner in an illegal poker game run by and filled with locals of the country I am in, a 3rd world country by the way where corruption is high and laws are flexible for the right price. A nationalistic 3rd world country where the police are likely to side with a local over you and that is before money and status enter the picture. By the way any locals playing in these games have money and status.


There is no way I would ever play in that game under those conditions. You couldn't pay me to play in that game. You could offer me 2 or 3 x my hourly rate in that game just to show up and play and I still wouldn't do it, and I wouldn't even second guess my decision not to.

But ok, to each their own.

I'm not trying to tell you what to do, I'm just trying to offer an alternative viewpoint on the issue from yours.

I think it's somewhat wrong to suggest others to play in these games, as I do believe over all, in the long run playing in illegal poker games in 3rd world countries that you are not a citizen of and don't have full grasp of the culture is a bad idea. I think it's a bad financial idea and I think it's a bad idea as far as ones physical safety goes.

You are paranoid....
I've played in a 100/200/400 game, Bi $10k where people were looking at each others hole cards... In general the games are extremely friendly compared to games I've played in Macau or other casinos. In a lot of these private games almost everyone knows each other.
Most underground games won't even let you in unless you know someone hence, the friendly nature of a lot of these games. Games run in the back rooms of a poker club is a whole other issue. These places get busted on occasions, players don't know each other very well. Big chance that you will most likely lose your money. You will probably be sent to jail overnight and that's it. To much paperwork to prosecute a foreigner in a relative small game in a poker club (5-10/10-20 or 25-50)

Ok, well I mean I haven't been in China in 4 years. You guys are both there at the moment, and you have a better idea of how the underground poker scene works there.

It's still a risk I would never take myself and I'm not sure you guys should really be promoting it to others as a good idea, but whatever.


For me, I'll take the Macau casino poker game over the underground poker game any day and every day.

But like I said, to each their own.

I don't promote it to anyone nor do I think it's a good idea. Cash games are illegal in China and you can end up in jail.

You asked about how the games work and I told you. That is not promoting it.

Ok it kind of sounded like you were promoting it a bit in your 'live poker is huge in China and getting bigger, but I don't think that translates to online though' post.

Certainly I could see that post making someone excited about playing live poker in China and then going out and looking for a game to play in.


But ok.

I'm glad to hear that games have worked out well for the two of you, but also glad to see you're not promoting them on a large scale to others.

I wish the two of you continued luck in the games you play in, both in terms of winning pots and in staying safe and getting paid.

Yeah, your way too paranoid. Use common sense and you will be fine.

China is an insanely safe country as long as you have common sense.

The people at these clubs won't bother robbing you because in the long run they will probably make more money off your losses anyhow

With that said, Rosie who used to be a frequent poster was stabbed in a Beijing club years ago. I remember from one of his posts a while back, it had nothing to do with wanting to rob him, it had to do with trash talking to each other.

Also, I doubt that there really are any "underground" poker clubs anymore. Most clubs in GZ and around China are run out in the open and are "legal". The same "legal" places usually have cash games going on (which isn't legal), so they would not really jeopardize their "legal" business to rob some guy.

Peter, where is that bigger game? Sounds fun

Well I am a nit, and a wining player. Even if I were a losing player I'd still be a nit so they would sure get my money much faster by robbing me


And I was including situations like trash talking in my considerations. Stuff that might make a Chinese guy feel like he is losing face. I could see that sort of thing causing violence.

Out of curiosity when Rosie was stabbed how was the situation resolved? Were police called in, if so did they help him? Was he helped to a hospital or did he have to get himself there? Or was it only a flesh wound?

One of the owners of TIT had a home game a while ago. Played there, they stopped though. It was near the canton place.

This news really suck for Live Tournament in China: http://somuchpoker.com/nanjing-milli...n-police-raid/

Was there on first day of the tournament and thought it would run without any issues. Unfortunate how things developed.

Really confused how this happens to PokerStars. Surely they went through the proper avenues to get everything settled. Seems like if there were going to be a problem it would be one similar to Guangzhou and the event would be canceled ahead of time.

Maybe the government is trying to funnel money back to Macau...which is funny because the reason why Macau is going belly up is the government.

Last year in Guangzhou was the Asian poker tour, nothing to do with stars.
Wuhan millions cancelled and now Nanjing millions before day 2.... Pokerstars aims for to many players... WPT, with 800-1k entries no problem. Nanjing had 2k entries, extra starting day, pissing of the government.

Wasn't saying the two tournaments were related. What I meant was that the Guangzhou tournament was determined to be illegal beforehand and was canceled before it started. Seems odd to me that a company like stars would start without being 100% sure it was legal and could be done.

It is their partner in China, Star Poker Club from Beijing, who was responsible to ensure everything is 100% legal. Another time something like this happened was in Hubei.

How does government wanting to funnel money back into Macau have anything to do with it? 3,000 RMB even with 2,000 entries is a tiny amount compared to how much VIPs play on the baccarat tables.

The reason why they were most likely shut down was because, they were taking cash at the table for players who wanted to make a rebuy. For all the tournaments which I've seen in China, I've never seen this before. By showing cash at the table the government will intervene because they see it as gambling.... The organisation, i.e. POKERSTARS ****ed up!

Stupid question: What language is acceptable at an asian tournament? Go ahead and flame me.. this thread has been dead for a few days anyway.