Thanks for the report OP, really interesting read.

Moki, alternative opinions are absolutely welcome but you've managed to add pretty much 0 to the conversation whilst simply insulting the OP. 3 times you've claimed "classic case of "noble savage bias'"' (once mispelling it nobel which was rather humorous) yet the term is meaningless (a search for this term brings this thread as the top result).

You even linked to the Wikipedia article that mentions nothing about bias. And oddly if you actually read the definition you linked to it mostly discusses freedom from indoctrination of western religion and civilisation, not capitalism. And there's little to criticise it as a concept other than it being idealised.

If you have personal negative experiences to the thread are very useful; hand-waving with "you don't understand the real cambodia" is valueless.

Well I'm glad this thread is starting to go somewhere near to where I expected. Rather everone assuming I'm having some mid-life crisis. i refer to my original post Im taking a couple of years out waiting for the economy to pick up!

I enjoy playing poker and so explained that the 3 hours of enjoyment i spend each morning virtually pay for it, I'm no grinder and would make considerably more in the UK working. It's a life style choice which I was hoping to share with others possible here already. I'm not suggesting anyone sell all their belongs and move here but someone may be in circumstances to come for 6 months a year or longer. I thought they may want to know if the internet was stable etc.

Zigi if you come and we meet then this is exactly what I was trying to achieve.

It's a nice place! you can avoid the sleaze if you want to (not everyone wants to). Yes you have to find the volunteers, NGO's and other people making lifestyle choices or working in bars etc here but they are here

[QUOTE=moki;25805914] OP never claimed that he understood the whole country or that he was going to discuss the economic problems the country face.

Obviously it's cheap to live due to it being a developing country; I don't think anyone doubts that.

He's stayed a when in Cambodia and gave his opinions. They are valid. Despite you obviously understanding much more deeply Cambodia, it has still taken you have a dozen posts and actually write anything of value.

I've met and known so many people like you who 'understand' the real country and belittle others who are only just discovering it and so will naturally have less knowledge than you. People can have different experiences. OP never wrote about how it was economically prosperous country and how cost of living was high, did he?

Distorted from your view of what you consider 'the real cambodia'.

Quite obviously OP is not living 'an average Cambodian life' is he? He talked about living in western-style apartments, 24-hour security, and earning 5x more than he needs to live. Do you really think that gave the impression that he was trying to live the simple life like the locals?

obviously when people do this and 'live like kings' in developing nations they are to some extent taking advantage of the economic situations of the host country. OP never suggested otherwise. What he did was take his time to write a trip report on how it's gone so far, and you've just come in and insulted him for not truely understanding what the country is like.

[QUOTE=moki;25805914]sigh.
There's a reason why you can live so cheaply there; the standard of living is much lower. Of course you can have a hell of a time vacationing in a country where the poverty line is defined as people making less than 45¢ per day. And 35% of the population lives on that.

I Don't see why you have a problem with foregin people living in Cambodia when the locals don't. They are economically savvy enough to understand we are a benefit.

Yes i have more money than 90% of the people here but I did in the UK, the only difference now is my "tourist dollar" is helping them and their economy (I'm not saying I'm noble I'm just stating the fact)

Thailand moved to be a developed country on the back of all those delusional tourist looking for "The Beach", who knows if you stop slaggin Cambodia off maybe it can too. Your comments are not +$EV for the cambodian people

Apologies for my obvious typo in one spot -- BTW, you misspelled "mispelling" lol

The term "noble savage" has been around for centuries. I'm sure a proper Google search will find you plenty of information on the subject.

"Noble savage" conceptually refers to the rather patronizing view that a simpler life, in harmony with the land, is pure and ideal. The canard is that it simply has never existed; people living in mud huts live a hard life.

For centuries, there are some of have raised up on an altar this concept of modern life being awful, and living a simpler life closer to nature being the ideal and pure. What OP has espoused is just another variant of this.

The problem is that many people espousing this viewpoint are literal and metaphorical tourists. It's another thing entirely to actually live that life.

The concept of the "noble savage", because it is somewhat unrealistic, condescending, and frequently based on (or the basis of) certain stereotypes, is frequently considered a form of racism, even when it replaces the old savage blood-thirsty stereotype of the Indian.

The myth of the "noble savage" may have served, in part, as an attempt to re-establish the value of indigenous lifestyles and delegitimatize imperial excesses - establishing exotic humans as morally superior in order to counter-balance the perceived political and economic inferiorities.

As noted above, the idea of the "noble savage" stemmed from a highly romanticized concept, not well founded in fact.

not to mention he basically assumed OP is white (oops), never been out of his home country (op stated he spent the last 2 years in Thailand, Vietnam), and generally all his responses were as if OP was a kid who doesn't know any better (OP owned a business and is in his 40's/2 years living in the area).

wrong on all counts (i think he started to realize this when he gave the good ol' "this will be my last post in this thread", but "always have to be right on the internet" prevailed), but give him props for being persistent.

[QUOTE=Iao;25806036] I don't have a problem with it at all -- I have told you to enjoy your adventure there on numerous occasions. And I still wish you good luck with it.

All I've stated was that I think you were painting an inaccurately rosy picture of what life is like in Cambodia. It's all well and good to talk about how "...the people are lovely, not yet obliterated by western values or capitalism" from your beach side villa that only a tiny percentage of the population of Cambodia could afford to even spend a weekend in.

I'm sure if given the option, many of the people would be absolutely thrilled to be "obliterated by the capitalism" that afforded you that luxury.

Moki is right imo, im sure OP does live a nice life in Cambodia and other poker players could too but this is because you can earn 10x what the locals can earn by working half as much as them.

The country in general is corrupt and poor as ****.

...except that I never stated any of the above things. I did not call him white, I said "White Man's" referring to the attitude. I never stated he had never left his country. I never stated that he was a kid who didn't know any better.

Ah well, so much for reading comprehension.

Also, by all means, please ignore that fact that someone who actually has lived in Cambodia for years (as opposed to the few weeks vacation that OP has done) essentially agreed with everything I've said.

Well I enjoyed reading the OP. Sounds like he is living a dream and making the most of his life. Respect for him - I probably would not have the balls to move so far from home to such a different culture.

I sense much jealousy in this thread...

Thanks, I am clear on the term 'noble savage', thank you. What I said was specifically 'noble savage bias', which is undefined and fairly meaningless. Bias towards what or whom? You said it 3 times in this thread.

The one short sentence he said that has any relation to this was "The people are lovely, not yet obliterated by western values or capitalism.". That's it.

To draw the conclusion that therefore he has some inherent noble savage 'bias', as you repeatedly call it, is just plain bizarre.


You talk all you want about the economic situation of cambodia. It's useful and interesting. Adding your own thoughts on the country (negative or otherwise) add value to the thread. But don't take away from what OP took the time to write here; he never claimed he 'understood' the country, or that there wasn't economic issues, or that quality of life was lower.

Specifically multiple times in his OP he referred to living 'western-standard' living with his apartment and monthly wage. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that OP is taking advantage of the cheaper living to live well, why implicitly is taking advantage of the economic situation of the country. You repeatedly stating that and insulting him and saying "i've known lots of people like you who don't truely understand what's going on in where you are staying" is insulting, meaningless, and is more judgemental than any bias OP has.

well you did say you were done and sorry for derailing..so I was right on one count! i don't think anything from the OP misleads us to believe that Cambodia isn't generally poor and corrupt.

so when you say "white man's paradise", any race can be substituted?

doesn't the second part of this sound like OP is exploiting the locals in someway by playing online poker, "earning 10x by doing half as much work"? i could be wrong..i'm not moki. lol

can't the same be said about places like thailand, mexico....fact is online poker players seem to be moving to these places. again, i don't think OP misleads us to believe that Cambodia doesn't have tons of issues.

Yeah, you're right. There's no value in pointing out to people reading this, who might be considering a venture to Cambodia, the reality that crime, corruption, and gangsterism in Cambodia is a real problem.

</whatever>

From what you stated earlier ITT, it was rather ambiguous that you were clear at all on the term. But you're welcome for the clarification.

Right, I'm sure he's formed a perfectly complete and accurate view of the people of Cambodia from the few weeks he's spent in his Westernized (oh the irony) beachside villa with 24/7 security that separates him from the populace. Please. I do believe I was quite correct in my assessment.

And for what it's worth, to my knowledge, 4 people ITT have actually been to Cambodia: myself, Iao (OP), zigi, and realmaniac1. 3 of the 4 people generally agree on the same basic points.

Moki, you have made your point. Please leave thread now or add something of value.

How much of a problem is it to someone who will go there and live in hotel at a beachfront resort in a town that caters to sex tourism and tourism?

If you read my post I don't claim he exploits anyone, you have just fabricated this.

No it was not, I even used quotation marks around the term to make it clear. And I said that your Wikipedia article makes no mention of 'bias'. There was no ambiguity, you chose to misinterpret or your misread what I wrote.

You're still not getting it. Let me state it absolutely clearly: he's not claiming he has an accurate view of the people of Cambodia, he doesn't have to to live there, and he doesn't need to to make this thread.

Other than one short sentence about the people he's met so far, he otherwise discusses the practicality of living there for a poker player (internet connection, cost of living, taxation, expat community).

It's absolutely clear to everyone but you that he implicitly states he does not have a 'complete and accurate view of the people of Cambodia'. That he lives in a western beach villa is exactly why he does not.

Only you are trying to draw that conclusion that offhandedly laugh at OP for his naivity and imply he's going through some mid-life crisis. And this does not reduce the value of his post.

Is this any clearer?

Tourists in such areas are much safer in general; the locals are not stupid, they know that without tourists, there is no money. However, the fact that people staying in said resorts have several thousand times the wealth of the average Cambodian also makes them an obvious target for petty crimes (pickpocketing, mugging, etc.) and potentially more serious crimes as well.

Venturing even a little bit off of the beaten path from the insulation of the beach resort, and things potentially get dicier. Primarily because you're simply someone with obvious wealth.

You mean the explicit sentence that I've quoted and have directly commented on. Man, you are seriously hopeless.

Yes, I do think based on OP's statements ITT that he is being naive, for the many reasons I've already outlined.

So Hood, you ever been to Cambodia? You able to discuss the validity of any of the content here, or are you just polishing up that shining knight armor?

Page 5 and no cambodian Girls? That cant be right.

moki/or anyone, what about the part where OP stated he's lived in Thailand for the past two years? Is Thailand a completely safe place, or not even close to the problems in Cambodia?

i guess the point i was trying to make is that he's not moving straight from UK-->Cambodia.

NO you WRONG that was me who said that i was done

I have nothing against OP i just tried to give him some 1 st hand info on the place he just moved to....i think been there up and on for over 10 years its maybe 12 but that isnt the point and tought i could give OP some advice.... I am with moki and many of his points are valid and he is clearly a man of the world who did alot of traveling.

now you did me post again man i am so weak.

I understand OP have a great time etc. and he 100% right to follow his dream to travel and see and living in other country's thats what i do for the last 15 years or so...but again OP did describe it all a bit to possitive and i wanted to point that out and if my english skills would be better i could make my points maybe more valid but moki did said alot of truth and dont need to be bashed for that. few months is simply not enough to have a clear sight of a place and OP clearly have some things wrong.

i was looking for a link of the friend of me that been killed there....i didnt find it by the first search but found few others on the first search and OP stated that it was all peace.

just happend OP must have know about this while he lives there others are less recent....peacefull city it is...

http://sihanoukville-gazette.blogspo...noukville.html

just google and you find some more and then some are not easy to find as i dont find anything related to my friend.

Thailand is, in general, a much, much safer place to live than Cambodia. Obviously there are exceptions, there are unsafe places in any country. And if you never leave your fortified resort, it probably doesn't make that much of a difference (but if you're going to live there for any extended period of time, you're going to leave your resort).

Infrastructure issues, corruption, and gangsterism is also present in Thailand (and every other country on the planet), but not to the degree that it is in Cambodia. It'd be somewhat similar to comparing Costa Rica (Thailand) to Guatemala (Cambodia).