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Old 09-22-2008, 06:34 AM   #1
Bonified
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WCOOP ME Bustout Hand

Here's my bustout hand from last night. I'm quite new to the table, which is significantly tougher than any I've played on up to that point (judging by OPR stats). No particular read on villain.

Briefly, pre-flop is a total position raise, 7800 to win 7200, I'm fairly confident that this was getting through often enough to be value even with no hand. Flop check is standard IMO, and I think turn bet to represent Ace can knock him off better hands (K, better J) and some hands I want him to fold (small spade).

The river though : is this just bad or really bad ? It looks like a horrible call in the cold light of day. Does anyone just check behind ? Pretty annoyed with myself for calling that, but should I be, trips getting more than 3-1 ?


Poker Stars $5000+$200 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t1500/t3000 Blinds - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: t283198
UTG: t72372
UTG+1: t55920
UTG+2: t75444
MP1: t335573
MP2: t192020
Hero (CO): t72961
BTN: t152074
SB: t214750

Pre Flop: (t7200) Hero is CO with J 2
5 folds, Hero raises to t7800, 2 folds, BB calls t4800

Flop: (t19800) K 6 J (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (t19800) A (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t12000, BB calls t12000

River: (t43800) J (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t18000, BB raises to t66000, Hero calls t34861 all in

Spoiler:
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Old 09-22-2008, 10:03 AM   #2
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Re: WCOOP ME Bustout Hand

If ur gunna be raising j2o i guess u played it fine, fold river to C/r.
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Old 09-22-2008, 10:15 AM   #3
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Re: WCOOP ME Bustout Hand

river pairs the board, with a possible flush out there... i highly doubt he is bluffin you there even though he took a soul read/very weird line....

edit: and im def not a fan of pf raise with this stack...
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Old 09-22-2008, 10:21 AM   #4
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Re: WCOOP ME Bustout Hand

Thanks for replies.

I think the stack is actually good for the pfr. When I raise to 2.5x from 24BB, no one behind me can 3-bet/fold IMO. So they have to commit 24BB to win 5BB on a re-steal, which is fairly inefficient.

If I had say 18BB I definitely would be cutting down on the open-raises a lot.
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Old 09-22-2008, 10:36 AM   #5
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Re: WCOOP ME Bustout Hand

i just fold pre because you are about to get into the area of a good reship stack, wich imo is somewhere between 13-23bbs, so i rather to save a bit now and dont cut my equity too much when your pfr dont work... but this is just totally personal anyway...
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Old 09-22-2008, 04:37 PM   #6
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Re: WCOOP ME Bustout Hand

<<<<<<<<<<< first level thinker

aren't you turning your hand into a bluff on the turn

i'd check behind again, induce bluffs, pot control.

I'd risk running a free spade or paint but for the sake of pot control I'm cool with that

And i'd just call the river when he leads.
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Old 09-22-2008, 06:47 PM   #7
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Re: WCOOP ME Bustout Hand

Check the turn.
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Old 09-22-2008, 09:23 PM   #8
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Re: WCOOP ME Bustout Hand

I would probably bet the flop and then shutdown.

I think checking the turn is the best line once you check the flop.

Given, the line you took, I call river too.

PS I don't like raising with trash hands, I find it gets you into trouble often enough to make it -EV, at least for me anyways
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Old 09-23-2008, 02:02 AM   #9
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Re: WCOOP ME Bustout Hand

I like betting the flop and shutting down when you get action as well. I mean, if he checks the turn and checks the river I would bet the river. I'm working under the assumption that if he check calls the flop he would lead the river and hopefully, considering his love of the slowplay, it would be a small amount that you could pay off and not bust.
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Old 09-23-2008, 05:03 AM   #10
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Re: WCOOP ME Bustout Hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketFrog View Post
<<<<<<<<<<< first level thinker

aren't you turning your hand into a bluff on the turn
Yes he is, he mentioned that in the OP though.

I'm focusing on the river action here also trying to work out what you can beat. From the villain's perspective, against someone on whom you have 'no particular read' would a big check-raise bluff be more the line to take than a straight bet out?

I'm not certain but I don't think he's bluffing all that often. If he's not bluffing he could have AK, although I think it unlikely he'd play it this way, or trips. I doubt he has a flush a lot, but of course there's also the full house to consider. If we give him JcX and one specific AK combo (to account for the fact it's unlikely) you have 41% equity on the river, maybe we can knock off a few percent for the flopped flush possibility though. We can put a few percent back on again for ballsy bluffs or A-random gone crazy.

This might be results oriented thinking but I'm just curious - in a cash game I'd say checking back this river would be missing value, I know you probably think the same but would you consider that more cautious line reasonable in this stage of a tournament against an unknown?

Edit: I see you considered that too, perhaps that suggests a river bet might be close to neutral or small +EV.

Last edited by jj179; 09-23-2008 at 05:11 AM. Reason: Reading the OP properly!
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Old 09-23-2008, 05:49 AM   #11
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Re: WCOOP ME Bustout Hand

Thanks for all responses. Definitely some good points to think about. One thing about checking the river is that until I learn to bet/fold the river sometimes, I will have to check the river more often ...
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Old 09-23-2008, 05:55 AM   #12
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Re: WCOOP ME Bustout Hand

Check turn. I don't like that bet because if BB just caught an A he will snap you off and even if you do have the best hand, you're not going to get called by anything worse, you're not folding out anything better unless someone has a jack with a better kicker. If BB bets once you've checked turn, you can happily fold and if he checks back, you still try to keep the pot as small as possible by betting small on the river.

I do think the problem in this hand stems from your poor decision to open the pot with J2 when your M is 10. If you had QJ it would be borderline but in that case I think it would be excusable. Previous posters have noted that you have a perfect resteal stack, so you want to save those chips instead of opening with marginal cards. That extra 7k would have much more utility when the guy to your right makes a steal-raise from the button with HIS J2o and you shove your whole stack in his face.
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Old 09-23-2008, 05:59 AM   #13
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Re: WCOOP ME Bustout Hand

I was also considering checking turn, but ur basicly giving up the pot at that point if u do. If ur gunna check turn u gotta rep the s if it comes on river for sure.
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Old 09-23-2008, 06:15 AM   #14
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Re: WCOOP ME Bustout Hand

I think hero played it perfectly postflop (except FOLD TO RIVER C/R)

I argue that betting the flop is a mistake.
I also think betting the turn is slightly better than checking the turn.

nh (but fold river)
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Old 09-23-2008, 06:28 AM   #15
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Re: WCOOP ME Bustout Hand

I'm taking on a lot of the advice in this thread but I strongly contend that the stack size is not perfect for being re-stolen. 5-6x the raise is a perfect resteal stack. 10x is not, in fact it's almost the worst because once you're up to 12x people can 3-bet/fold.
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