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Old 12-04-2007, 03:09 AM   #1
swede554
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Stars $109, idiot+competent player= confusing flop spot w/ JJ

BB lost most of his stack 4 hands ago after AT<AK on an A-high flop, and has since then shoved pre 3 out of 4 hands. MP2 seemed somewhat TAGish, and competent. I'm not 3betting pre because I looking to give BB a chance to shove, and if MP2 iso-shoves I'm calling, if he calls, I'm shoving. BB wrecks my plan by calling instead, and shoves the flop. Now what?


Poker Stars $100 $9 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t25/t50 Blinds - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: t8105
BB: t1015
UTG: t6570
UTG+1: t3165
UTG+2: t3345
MP1: t3725
MP2: t2075
CO: t3030
Hero (BTN): t2500

Pre Flop: Hero is BTN with J J
4 folds, MP2 raises to t150, 1 fold, Hero calls t150, 1 fold, BB calls t100

Flop: (t475) Q 3 2 (3 players)
BB bets t865 all in, MP2 raises to t1925 all in, Hero?

Last edited by swede554; 12-04-2007 at 03:14 AM.
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Old 12-04-2007, 04:05 AM   #2
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Re: Stars $109, idiot+competent player= confusing flop spot w/ JJ

fold, i dont rly see what you beat. but I would raise preflop. I think calling here will get you into too many tricky situations, so i would 3bet/call shove.
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Old 12-04-2007, 04:40 AM   #3
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Re: Stars $109, idiot+competent player= confusing flop spot w/ JJ

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Originally Posted by moneyinbag View Post
fold, i dont rly see what you beat. but I would raise preflop. I think calling here will get you into too many tricky situations, so i would 3bet/call shove.
agree w/ above
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Old 12-04-2007, 04:47 AM   #4
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Re: Stars $109, idiot+competent player= confusing flop spot w/ JJ

Fold and r/r pf. You dont get a squeeze by btn here enough to make this profitable.
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Old 12-04-2007, 05:43 AM   #5
swede554
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Re: Stars $109, idiot+competent player= confusing flop spot w/ JJ

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Originally Posted by zizazziza View Post
Fold and r/r pf. You dont get a squeeze by btn here enough to make this profitable.
I'm the button. BB had open-shoved 3 out of the last 4 hands, for 16-18bb's and was obv tilting. I wanted him to give him the opportunity to keep that up, something he probably wouldn't attempt facing a 3bet. Is my thinking way off on this one? Even if BB is playing "normally" is not 3betting this pre really that bad?
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Old 12-04-2007, 07:34 AM   #6
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Re: Stars $109, idiot+competent player= confusing flop spot w/ JJ

the flop is turned out bad easy fold
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Old 12-04-2007, 12:19 PM   #7
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Re: Stars $109, idiot+competent player= confusing flop spot w/ JJ

Reraising preflop is more standard, but the flat call is fine, particularly with position on the button, and particularly based on your read.

Obviously fold the flop with this action.
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Old 12-04-2007, 12:28 PM   #8
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Re: Stars $109, idiot+competent player= confusing flop spot w/ JJ

im really not a fan of reraising preflop here as i think it folds out most worse hands.....

well played, play the pot in position stack 8s on a 2 3 3 flop, fold to the iso on that flop


do you guys call the bb shove if mp2 folds?
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Old 12-04-2007, 12:33 PM   #9
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Re: Stars $109, idiot+competent player= confusing flop spot w/ JJ

Should of reraised PF but fold as played, bad flop for you.
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Old 12-04-2007, 12:52 PM   #10
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Re: Stars $109, idiot+competent player= confusing flop spot w/ JJ

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Originally Posted by getballed View Post
Should of reraised PF but fold as played, bad flop for you.
Can someone explain why flat calling with position with JJ is so much worse than reraising preflop in this situation?
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Old 12-04-2007, 07:50 PM   #11
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Re: Stars $109, idiot+competent player= confusing flop spot w/ JJ

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Originally Posted by betgo View Post
Can someone explain why flat calling with position with JJ is so much worse than reraising preflop in this situation?
B/c if MP2 is shoving top 6% preflop (88+,ATs+,KQs,AQo+) we still have 53.7% Equity so 4bet/call is good. Also if he just calls preflop you have JJ OTB.
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Old 12-04-2007, 08:15 PM   #12
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Re: Stars $109, idiot+competent player= confusing flop spot w/ JJ

I like PF
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Old 12-04-2007, 10:14 PM   #13
swede554
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Re: Stars $109, idiot+competent player= confusing flop spot w/ JJ

I folded the flop, which the consensus seems to be. BB tabled Jc5c, MP2 AKo (?), which won with A-high. Under any normal circumstances I wouldn't question this fold, and probably wouldn't even post this hand, but with a BB that's tilting and shoving very wide (even on the flop imo), I thought that MP2 was capable of iso w/ a pretty wide range as well, which he was. So I think this is closer than it appears.
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