This seems pretty accurate. I never fold here.

Kind of agree with both of these posts, shove > call > fold if the flatter is loose and terrible and fold > call > shove if he has a tight range but call is very rarely the best option here.

QFT

seems like a stupid hand to post for what you claim to be. just shove its elky wtf.

would not in a million years fold.

That's not really what I said though and without being rude I don't think its contributing a lot at this point. To me it's more a question of would you ever call here given that Elky opens here and xxx flats utg+2 (my answer is no and I agree with Billy and Todd) but no one has actually provided an argument beyond "lol dont fold" or "wtf you cant be serious".
Id love something a little more in depth from Christian Harder

mement im on my way out, but just wanted to say that ill post my reasonings later, but in short: pot odds.

We have a king and a queen they work well together, pot odds, we keep the ****** in and we dont have to risk our stack. Dunno if the last part means anything to anyone tho. Im confused as to whether u think calling is bad or just suboptimal if u think its bad then why?

pretty close between shoving and calling imo. depends how badly u want the flatter to stay in the pot i guess?

Yeah I think the call is "bad" in the sense that I can't think of any situation where it would be the best option. As Billy said either utg+2 has such a tight calling range that fold is best (pretty much just blading like some people esp 2+2ers will be in that spot, obviously this go against our read though) or he will have such a wide range that shoving will be significantly better than pushing. I can't think of a reasonable scenario where calling would be the best.

That's why im saying that a bunch of people saying "never fold" is adding almost nothing to any of the discussion and not really helping anyone out. For flatting to be better I feel like you would have to know a lot about utg+2/elkys spazzing frequencies postflop combined with their unwillingness to get in pf for it to ever be the best thing. Or have a very specific read that eithers hand distribution is more heavily weighted towards hands (an example would be Elky opening KTs but folding A6s or utg+2 peeling T9s but not 22).

The part about not risking our stack certainly has some merit but the stacks in this tourney are pretty shallow at this point (I was still in it myself too) and turning down significant cev+ edges seems like a really bad idea. Also I think a lot of people overestimate how much calling reduces are likelyhood to bust (not saying thats what you think aaaaaaaa just saying) and I don't think we are gonna bust that often if we jam.

Cliffs:
instead of Shove >> Call >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fold as everyone seems to agree on I think its Shove >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Call >> Fold and a certain set of circumstances could make fold best (arent present in the op though), very rarely would I think call would ever be best.

Everyone agrees with everyone.

I think calling will show a larger profit than Mement does, but that doesn't really mean too much and certainly isn't worth debating given we both think shove > call > fold in this exact scenario.

Mickey, what hands would you call in this spot?

mickey wins the thread

Shawn, I think it's pretty clear that we should have an empty calling range in this spot (although I suppose you could argue for kings and aces but it seems like utg+2 is gonna peel even if we make a small reraise).
As Doubleice already pointed out we should be shoving waaaaaaaay wider if it's a correct assumption that utg+2 is peeling 45s and/or Elky is opening light.

I guess this is a spot where we play differently as I'd be flatting a reasonable amount of hands in this spot, mostly high suited connector type hands. I think you're definitely underestimating the ev of flatting in this spot and you said you want to shove because you dont want to turn down a +cev edge but you don't know what the cev of flatting is and if it is > shoving

Just wanna have the last word now that I know Shawn is asleep

Yeah it's possible I underestimate the ev of flatting (it is also worth considering that neither me or Pgh plays as well as you postflop even if we are pretty shallow). Obviously you are correct that I don't know what the ev of flatting is but no one ever does so I think that's a weak argument, it dosen't mean that I cant make an educated guess.

Hey one more thing that I think is even more interesting that I just discussed with Shawn (don't think I could add a poll) and that I would be VERY interested in peoples opinion on are:

Based on the assumption that utg is opening wide and is a good postflop player and utg+1 is calling preflop with hands as weak as 45s and is playing poorly postflop would you rather call or shove 67s, and is it possible that there is a big enough postflop skillgap between two winning regs where call could be optimal for one person and shove for another?

Anything's possible, but in the blinds with an SPR of 3 in a 3-way pot I don't think there's going to be much room for the sickest postflop player in the world to differentiate himself from someone who's at least semi-competent.

I'd call with 76s here.

I would call with 22 and 78s. Those hands are too easy to play postfop with these stack sizes to not call for one more BB.

Hi,

I'm quite new... so if I'm braking some kind of rules just let me know...

I just 'd to ask if is like std to assume so a wide range to a utg+1 opener + a flatter to go no-doubting 4 a squeeze ? bcause, ok is Ellky, but I see some short behind and a lot of restealing stakes... d u really think that his open range is so wide???

r we not overvaluating the opening range of or in this spot? I frankly don't see a ton of missed value in folding.

ty 4answer.

People have not assigned Elky a specific range ITT (and there really is no need to) but I get the impression that Elky is opening tighter than most people think because of stack sizes. That said I do have KQ, we aren't talkng about jamming 67.

KQ on pokerstars too.....

I dont like any option really. without the "******ed" read on UTG+2 I would probably end up folding though.

just in general

This is where I disagree. Theres no middle ground? I don't get it. There almost has to be. I think a significant portion of time there is a middle ground, where Elky is opening decently wide but nothing crazy and same for flatter. Your getting great odds to call here...Obviously theres some reserve implied odds against super tight ranges, but that isn't relevant here. Elky is never opening tight enough for it to be a fold to a minraise and this flatter could be somewhere in between tight and loose. Against this flatter, shoving is prolly ok, but under a lot of circumstances, I think calling will be optimal. And even against loose ranges for both elky and flatter, calling might be more +ev has flopping top pair has a lot of value, where you can stack off confidently.