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Really awkward spot with top 2 in WCOOP 1K Really awkward spot with top 2 in WCOOP 1K

09-21-2010 , 09:57 PM
Poker Stars $1000+$50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t20/t40 Blinds - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (BB): t6476 161.90 BBs
YaGotBurnt (UTG): t8450 211.25 BBs
sandler1860 (UTG+1): t8085 202.12 BBs
TomasQ (UTG+2): t5725 143.12 BBs
Shane Gamble (MP1): t7035 175.88 BBs
twirlpro (MP2): t8215 205.38 BBs
NoraFlum (CO): t6839 170.97 BBs
Tomif gsd (BTN): t6945 173.62 BBs
stikit (SB): t9730 243.25 BBs

Pre Flop: (t60) Hero is BB with Q K
3 folds, Shane Gamble raises to t120, twirlpro calls t120, NoraFlum calls t120, 2 folds, Hero calls t80

Flop: (t500) 8 K Q (4 players)
Hero checks, Shane Gamble bets t295, twirlpro folds, NoraFlum raises to t800


So far I have a pretty bad image, three-bet four or five times. Only one that went to showdown was me double-barrelling 9h7h on 8h6h8d6d and checking back a brick river. I'm pretty sure we can completely discount QQ and KK from the 2nd villains range given the overcall pre and stack depths. If we give him an aggressive flop raising range of 88,AcQc,AcJc,AcTc,KQs,QcJc,QcTc,JcTc,Tc9c,KQo, we end up with 47% equity. Against a more passive range of KQo, JcTc, AcTc, AcJc, 88, we have 42.7%.

Dunno anything about PFR or how to deal with his c-betting range on this texture, as a default I'd assume it's pretty strong betting into four people. I'm not sure how to construct his range.

Should we just fold? If we continue, do we flat or 3-bet, and why? Given how you continue, is there any set of action behind you that makes you fold?
09-21-2010 , 11:26 PM
I expect the c-better to have a pretty strong range here. TJ AXcc KQ AQ KK QQ 88 AA. Hands like JJ I expect him to check and see how the action goes and probably fold here on this type of board. He might c-bet as bluff here with some smaller PPs since it would look super strong and he might bink a set on the turn.

I would exclude most draws from Nora since he/she has position and stacks are super deep. Raising strong draws here could be good to put a lot of pressure and make IR fold AA AK AQ type of hands. Also it will put players behind him/her in a tough spot with KQ for example.
However, the fact that the IR his cbet should be with a really tight/strong range. Makes more inclined to think that Nora his/her raise is for value more often then a semibluff. Also nora's raise sizing is pretty strong here..

It seems weird to see nora show up with KK or QQ here so I'll expect Nora's value range to be 88 KQ and sometimes a semibluff range of combo draws AQcc, TJcc ATcc.

I hate my life in this spot but I think a fold is better then all other options.
09-22-2010 , 12:07 AM
I personally 1775/fold if I have a read that villain will accept appropriate odds to draw on flop and not blast it... then play the turn accordingly. AcQc or 88 appears to be the most likely holding, the raise attempting to fold out something like AK with the former and value with the latter.
However, reputations considered, I don't know what else you could do besides raise big. Maybe flat and continue on non-A non-club turns?
09-22-2010 , 12:46 AM
I feel like you're never giving much up by folding in these spots, and your reverse implied odds are bad
09-22-2010 , 01:03 AM
This is such a ridiculous spot, I actually think folding is best, I think, however in game my head might asplode.
09-22-2010 , 02:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDBeast
This is such a ridiculous spot, I actually think folding is best, I think, however in game my head might asplode.
Pretty much this. I think your thought process and ranges are right on here NSB, and from what I can tell they seem to indicate it's a fold, since I think we never wind up jacking it and he was just raising air balls and folds.
09-22-2010 , 03:33 AM
I think since continuing with the hand in almost any line will also mean you cannot get value from worse hands makes this a fold considering people will pretty much be able to play their range perfect against you considering you don't really ever have bluffs.
09-22-2010 , 01:07 PM
id call here and folding if shane puts in another raise otf
09-22-2010 , 01:39 PM
09-22-2010 , 01:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndahlhoff10
id call here and folding if shane puts in another raise otf
Why would you call here??? What if shane folds and nora bets turn when draw misses? or when draw hits? If you call here and fold to any turn action it's like burning money.

In nora's spot if she would have the nut draw then your range as the caller would be pretty obvious and she can fire any turn she missed and you will be forced to fold anyway.

Just fold flop imo and look for better spots. Like rumchness says, you are not giving up a lot and your reversed implied odds are terrible..
09-22-2010 , 01:58 PM
I'm sigh folding flop here.. i just can't think of a great way to proceed on a turn that's not a K or Q..
09-22-2010 , 09:33 PM
Does the fact that we checked the flop factor in a bit here? Can't Nora be raising weaker draws and such given that the original raiser is continuing and we've shown weakness? Something more like NSB's 1st assigned range and maybe wider?
I'm guessing this is a leak in my game because so many good posters are suggesting folding, but we flopped top2 on a drawy board where the only real hand that beats us is 88, and we always have 4 live outs.
09-22-2010 , 10:13 PM
im not prepared to fold yet
09-23-2010 , 01:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingDan
im not prepared to fold yet
+1
09-23-2010 , 01:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingDan
im not prepared to fold yet
so what are you prepared to do, flat?
09-23-2010 , 06:56 AM
I call.
09-23-2010 , 08:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Terry
I call.
Wow
09-23-2010 , 08:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinking Ship
I personally 1775/fold if I have a read that villain will accept appropriate odds to draw on flop and not blast it... then play the turn accordingly. AcQc or 88 appears to be the most likely holding, the raise attempting to fold out something like AK with the former and value with the latter.
However, reputations considered, I don't know what else you could do besides raise big. Maybe flat and continue on non-A non-club turns?
3b'ing here seems pretty attrocious considering we NEVER have KK or QQ and Nora can easily have 88 and can have pretty sick eqty w/combo draws...

3b'ing can not be a viable option
09-23-2010 , 10:07 AM
lol @ 3bing this

I'm in the call camp as well, not really prepared to fold just yet this deep
09-23-2010 , 10:19 AM
i shove and rep draw
09-23-2010 , 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aseHigh
lol @ 3bing this

I'm in the call camp as well, not really prepared to fold just yet this deep
And OOP......

What is our calling range??? We basically never have KK QQ and we would definitely 3bet 88 here.

A call here just sets you up getting owned big time this deep while being OOP.
09-23-2010 , 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rh300487
And OOP......

What is our calling range??? We basically never have KK QQ and we would definitely 3bet 88 here.

A call here just sets you up getting owned big time this deep while being OOP.
owned ? owned by what ? our flat shows imense strength and I expect said villains to play str8 fwd after this , flop or turn
09-23-2010 , 04:13 PM
i lead this flop.
09-23-2010 , 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arvid2k7
i lead this flop.
Very results oriented imo, check-raising is pretty clearly better than leading here, we just ran into a weird and rare situation.
09-23-2010 , 05:46 PM
just muck - and never, ever tell a soul that you did

as an aside - i don't see K8s and Q8s in his supposed range to call the CO pre - this deep it would be a mistake to say that he never has these holdings - i dont know his DS tendencies well enough to say how much these holdings would need to be discounted

Last edited by threatnasty; 09-23-2010 at 05:52 PM.

      
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