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Old 02-03-2009, 12:30 PM   #26
TheToke
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

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Originally Posted by Bond18 View Post
FWIW you and I came to the same conclusion.
So I'm mainly cash player and only done like two 1k WSOP live tourneys so I dont have much experience. But comparing C/R to B/C...

You have about 22k left.
If you C/R, he'll probably bet I'll say 8k on average? I dunno this is really a number I'm pulling out of my @@#@#. Obviously when we shove, were generally only getting called by better (obv few hands will be worse or flipping but for arguments sake since they'll also be involved in our bet and he shoves).

If we Bet out 7k I beleive we have enough left villian should beleive he has FE. So aside from those hands we get in against where were toast, we have a few more where we are ok.

So is the villians chance of b/f flop worth 3x as much as extra hands we get it in with from all in raise, coupled with possibility of giving him a free turn card?
If villian has say lower PP, he'll likely check back flop if we check and I'd think even if he does bet he'd b/f so gain 8k, but if we bet he'll likely be committing himself or folding so gain 22k. There's a 10% chance then a A rolls off, or 20% we see a K or Q. I really hate this spot and what's plan of action when these occur? Additionally he's got a 4.5% chance to hit his set.

I guess I'm interested on what your line of thinking is for CRai.

Last edited by TheToke; 02-03-2009 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:46 PM   #27
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

OP says that he has been 3betting Jared quite often, I am interested to know if any of those 3 bets were called/shoved on and how those hands were played. In other words, does he have any sort of info of ur play after the 3bet. It may influence his play since the stacks are fairly deep and he knows that his flat suggest extreme strength which may in turn freeze the lower part of OP 3bet range on flops exactly like this and allow him take the pots. dont know if i am giving villian too much credit, but OP did say he was a thinking player...

Anyway imo, this knowledge may help to decide between CRAI, c/f, r/f
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:23 PM   #28
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

one of the better posts I have read in a long while.
Thanks.
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:52 PM   #29
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

Bet $2500 for value, and 3 bet all in to a raise and claim 45 suited if someone inquires.

it should play similar to a crai, only you give up the ability for him to take a free card (just a cheap one) and should actually force him to raise with most of his napkin holdings. Also allows you to take a cheap shot at a big pot later in the tournament.
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Old 02-03-2009, 08:40 PM   #30
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

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it seems like a good spot to bet 7,200 and fold out his AK perhaps down to ATs?
Quote:
I bet out 5200 into the ~8000 pot.
Quote:
But comparing C/R to B/C...

You have about 22k left.
Wow, there are some bad posters in here. I don't understand how you guys mess up pot sizes/stack sizes so easily. READ THE GODDAMN THREAD.
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Old 02-04-2009, 12:02 AM   #31
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

I also agree that Bond will often C/F here, so that sets up a great spot for a C/R all in IMO.

I'm curious to know some reads on Andrew post flop. Bond mentioned that he has been flatting reraises wider than others, but how does he play then post flop? Will he check behind with a hand like AJ+ in this spot to take the free card? Or will he try and take the pot? I'd like to know this information before I made my final decision.
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Old 02-04-2009, 03:48 AM   #32
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

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Originally Posted by Bond18 View Post
FWIW you and I came to the same conclusion.

Well, there's a question here of balancing ranges, especially given villain's game of choice (cash).

I think I can see a flat here with the top end of his range, hoping to induce a squeeze. The bottom of his range (hands with more implied value, only in this equation at all because you said he flats more often than a normal player) could flat, hoping OR folds, or flats (ewww).

If we're not thinking about balancing ranges, wouldn't the middle of his range be the hands he is 4betting?

I am probably way off, but I stand to learn something either way.

Oh, and my bad for misreading the pot size at first, guess that's the hazard of reading threads while tabling.
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Old 02-04-2009, 07:46 AM   #33
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

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Originally Posted by donpeters View Post
I also agree that Bond will often C/F here, so that sets up a great spot for a C/R all in IMO.

I'm curious to know some reads on Andrew post flop. Bond mentioned that he has been flatting reraises wider than others, but how does he play then post flop? Will he check behind with a hand like AJ+ in this spot to take the free card? Or will he try and take the pot? I'd like to know this information before I made my final decision.
andrew is a c-betting machine. ive played some hands with the guy and i dont think he likes checking behind much.
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:59 AM   #34
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

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Originally Posted by Minesony View Post
andrew is a c-betting machine. ive played some hands with the guy and i dont think he likes checking behind much.
Then I CRAI.
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Old 02-04-2009, 02:21 PM   #35
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

He doesnt have lead though so its not a C-bet. If he has this same tendency when checked to him in position whether he flats or has the lead than I'd agree with a CRAI since your exploiting a notable tendency of his, and that's really the only postflop behavior we have on him.
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Old 02-04-2009, 02:35 PM   #36
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

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Originally Posted by Cobrakid88 View Post
if you've been three betting Jarred often and he's been calling wide, heads up or not, and he has position/big stack, it seems like a good spot to bet 7,200 and fold out his AK perhaps down to ATs?....and maybe he flats a small to medium percentage of the time with a KQs/KJs/QJs/JTs(maybe a little less on KJs and QJs(not to say the other two are super often either but at least a little more likely I would think)....and pick up a nice 20% or so increase in your stack/call shove from possibly(probably pretty small percentage) A9s/pretty much everything he'd call with from hands(basically only over cards i would think)that make flush draws and flip or likely-good-often-in-his-mind mid pair hands (that won't hurt his stack THAT ridiculously much if he's beat since he has around 70-some-bbs left) to shove/bluffs/mutter about a cooler on anything that beats you(probably only 4 hands?maaybe 6 if he's wide enough for 33/55 although he is seemingly deep enough for this....maaaaybe seven(seems like he would raise KK more often and flat more often with the QQ and AA....but that's not saying it's not perhaps even FAR more likely to see him raise all three bigger pairs since it would seem he wouldn't mess around flatting them given the likelihood of getting two callers, one of which could seriously affect his tournament and would often create a rather volatile/relatively big 3-way pot and the other big stack's hand seems pretty easily folded out by any kind or re-reraise(and likely happily so for him I would think).....I'm too lazy to do anything mathematical but it would seem betting/calling would have a pretty good amount of positive expectation in this spot given the two stack sizes and a faaiirrrllyyy wide range but fair one, IMO.

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Old 02-04-2009, 08:58 PM   #37
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

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Originally Posted by TheToke View Post
He doesnt have lead though so its not a C-bet. If he has this same tendency when checked to him in position whether he flats or has the lead than I'd agree with a CRAI since your exploiting a notable tendency of his, and that's really the only postflop behavior we have on him.
Agreed.
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Old 02-04-2009, 09:17 PM   #38
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

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Originally Posted by Abbaddabba View Post
the whole reason continuation bets make sense for the person who has the initiative preflop is because the opening raiser tends to have a tighter range than the person flatting, and therefor will tend to have the better hand after the flop too.
This is just false. In fact I would say in good games the opposite is true. The main reason cbetting makes sense is because oop vs anyone competent if you check its basically impossible to win the pot postflop with a lot of your marginal/weak holdings. Because of this you need to bet your big hands so you can win the with all your junky hands. Not to mention if you keep the impetus you can barrell multiple streets and unless villain makes a big hand it can be really tough to call down because we have a lot of strong hands in our range.

I don't particuarly like betting here but I think its the best of all the options. The problem with checking is once you check its a ****ty spot where you can level yourself into shoving or folding but will hate the spot regardless. If villain wants to play for stacks you are ****ed in this spot almost always. Which is why checking sucks because you don't get to find out if he wants to play for stacks so your stuck in a spot where he needs to risk 5k and you need to risk like 30k. By betting out you only need to risk 5k and your repping a really strong range so he's never going to try and bluff you.

TBH I don't expect him to cold call 3bets that wide so c/f would be fine also. There is a huge difference between raising and calling a 3bet and cold flatting a 3bet.
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:54 PM   #39
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

FWIW Eagles, he has to bet at least 8k (2/3rds). I'm curious, why do you feel that when playing against a thinking player, the Gap Concept doesn't come into play?

Also, betting 8k here puts a little over 1/3rd of hero's stack into the pot. It's a ****ty spot, no doubt.

As to my question to you, I'm not being facetious or anything, genuinely curious.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:12 AM   #40
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

FLAT PREFLOP
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Old 02-05-2009, 01:24 AM   #41
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

Eagles...I was tempted to make that post but didnt have the energy...obviously totally correct
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Old 02-05-2009, 07:04 AM   #42
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

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Originally Posted by Eagles View Post
This is just false. In fact I would say in good games the opposite is true. The main reason cbetting makes sense is because oop vs anyone competent if you check its basically impossible to win the pot postflop with a lot of your marginal/weak holdings. Because of this you need to bet your big hands so you can win the with all your junky hands. Not to mention if you keep the impetus you can barrell multiple streets and unless villain makes a big hand it can be really tough to call down because we have a lot of strong hands in our range.

.

i dont know what that has to do with the post you quoted. you cant just throw out a "u r wrong" bomb and go off on an unrelated tangent.

im explaining why the person who has the initiative more often than not tends to be the one to bet.

you seem to be describing why people bet with different types of hands and how the bets should be balanced. which is really besides the point here. im not saying what to do with any specific hand or how to balance your bets. im saying your tendency in this spot should be to check with your entire range ... for the same reason why you tend to check the flop after flatting in the bb.

having a balanced bet range is only half the problem. having a balanced check range is equally important, and a lot more relevant in this situation.

if you're value betting all the way down to jacks (which is probably redundant in the first place, and you should feel pretty bad if the stacks get in there), the hands that you check will almost all be check/folds.



it's not necessary to check your entire range just because his range is > yours, but make sure the hands that you're value betting are hands that you actually feel good about getting the money in with. not where, if he raises, you want to puke.
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Old 02-05-2009, 10:56 AM   #43
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

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Originally Posted by Abbaddabba View Post
i dont know what that has to do with the post you quoted. you cant just throw out a "u r wrong" bomb and go off on an unrelated tangent.

im explaining why the person who has the initiative more often than not tends to be the one to bet.

you seem to be describing why people bet with different types of hands and how the bets should be balanced. which is really besides the point here. im not saying what to do with any specific hand or how to balance your bets. im saying your tendency in this spot should be to check with your entire range ... for the same reason why you tend to check the flop after flatting in the bb.

having a balanced bet range is only half the problem. having a balanced check range is equally important, and a lot more relevant in this situation.

if you're value betting all the way down to jacks (which is probably redundant in the first place, and you should feel pretty bad if the stacks get in there), the hands that you check will almost all be check/folds.



it's not necessary to check your entire range just because his range is > yours, but make sure the hands that you're value betting are hands that you actually feel good about getting the money in with. not where, if he raises, you want to puke.
Abba--

Nice work in this thread. I don't think the details of this hand are obvious, but it seems pretty certain that you understand poker well. If you keep posting I'll want to hang out in MTT more often...

All my best,

--Nate
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:05 AM   #44
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

CRAI
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:05 PM   #45
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

Abba,
The gap concept applies pf here. You can profitably open 54s because you win the pot a large % pf but you can't profitably call rly.(Could prob 3bet profitably but that's not the point).

You don't need to bet 8k you can bet really small in a lot of spots just see how people react its fun.
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Old 02-05-2009, 01:32 PM   #46
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Re: Live spot 4, JJ vs online mid-high stakes reg calling cold 3 ball

limit hold thems balla pwning this thread imo
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