Have been at the same table with the org raiser and flater the whole tournament. Neither one has gotten out of line frm what I have seen. Both playing TAG.

Do you guys flat here or 3/bet? If you 3/bet, what is the size of your bet?

Full Tilt Poker $50,000 Guarantee No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t80/t160 Blinds - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG+2: t6741
MP1: t7010
MP2: t4538
CO: t3016
Hero (BTN): t7370
SB: t3105
BB: t8771
UTG: t7544
UTG+1: t12845

Pre Flop: (t240) Hero is BTN with J J
UTG raises to t425, UTG+1 calls t425, 1 fold, MP1 calls t425, 2 folds, [color=red]Hero ??

I just flat in most table dynamics if I 3 bet I guess I go to 1625 or so.

Unless the table was really loose/bad I'm probably just flatting here.

3-betting sucks here if we plan on folding to a 4-bet/shove.

Flatting is good

Flat is best imo.

I personally think that flattin is no good here. I mean we have no real information on any of these hands here. Flop comes 10 hi, UTG leads, UTG +1 calls, then what do you do? Now you are stuck playing a huge pot with JJ for your tourney life when you coulda 3 bet pf and found out all kinds of info.

Is it ignorant for me to think flatting is bad? I just dont see how playing a four handed pot with JJ is ever a good idea in this spot.

It's a tough spot, if you reraise UTG and UTG+1 might shove just because they might think you are trying to squeeze here, calling would be the most conservative approach and see how they react to the flop, if you see much action on the flop easy fold.

Flat calling sucks.

I'm 3 betting here all day. Prob to 1800 or so.
3 betting a tight UTG player shows considerable strength in it's self.

If he shoves is he doing it with hands you crush or flip 10 10 , AJ , JJ, AQ, ?
(If you have been getting out of line this is possible)
or have you crushed or flip AA, KK, QQ, AK, JJ ?

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.585% 35.01% 01.57% 20984510 940916.00 { JcJd }
Hand 1: 63.415% 61.85% 01.57% 37064298 940916.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

You have plenty of chips behind to if you want to fold to UTG shove if you think he is only doing this with a range you only have 36% equity against.
Or if you think he is a maniac you can take a coin flip.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.532% 48.51% 01.02% 53992292 1137005.00 { JcJd }
Hand 1: 50.468% 49.45% 01.02% 55033458 1137005.00 { TT+, AJs+, AJo+ }

I think if UTG+1 has a hand worth shoving he is 3 betting himself or he is trapping with a monster so if UTG folds and he shoves you can fold.

You have to raise to get the pot heads up, take it down or make a decision about the shove.

JJ only has a 47% chance of getting a flop without over cards.

If the flop comes down 10 7 3 are you going to fold if they give you action ?
They didn't call your 3bet with A10, the only hand that could possibly call hoping you had AK, AQ....

Also, smooth calling all the time afraid others are going to shove is not going to win tournaments. Otherwise your playing JJ for set value !

3bet/calling UTG or potentially flatter sucks since his 4bet shove range prob has you crushed

3bet/folding sucks since you're pretty much negating any value JJ has as its just an any2 squeeze

Call me a nit, but I see the most value here in flatting and playing for set value.

Are you only 3 betting when you can call a shove in this situation ?

Dunnow about the playing only for set value, but I agree that 3-betting here allows UTG to play his range nearly perfectly against us while potentially putting us in a incredibly difficult spot.

Playing for set value? You first need to hit the set to play it for value, considering that you flat here you can see what everybody does after the flop to if it gets to much action you can get away cheaply, or 3bet and isolate one of them, but like I said UTG and UTG+1 might think you trying to squeeze so you will probably have to call a shove, if you think it that way a 3bet might have the best value.

i lol'ed

Your relative position on the flop is quite good here, check & let them do stuff before you put another chip in the pot. If the action you suggested occurs, you have the information you want. You can fold if they are both solid types. Note that if you raise pre, you have still created a huge pot, and a lot of the time UTG or UTG+1 will shove. Now what? Is this an easy decision? Possibly, but it cost you 20% of your stack.

Not if my 3bet is on the smaller side. 1800 is a lil much imo. I ended up making it 1260, UTG flatted, and UTG +1 min-raised, I folded, and UTG shved had JJ as well. Thnx for all the feedback. I just thought that flatting here is absolute worst. Im completly capable of folding JJ on a 10 hi but just thought this would be the best line to take in this spot. If anyone thinks the above line is horrid please lemme knw and why.

people always seem to forget that JJ is a medium pair, mainly because LATER in the tournament you're probably not folding it very often. in this situation where stacks are about 50ish bbs deep, i think you definitely get the most value and least variance from playing the hand for set value and some overpair value in position.

flatting>>>>>>3bet/calling>>>>>>>>>>>>3bet/folding

Not bad at all, we also need to remember that in that kind of tournaments ppl tend to be hyper aggros and they get it in with 99 TT even 88s sometimes, I think you played it good, if you think you can get away in a 10 high board then maybe flatting is good, but if not the RR is acceptable. JMHO

I'd 3bet to 2k and fold to shove.