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FTOPS Main Silly bvb Spot (50bb shove)

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02-22-2011 , 06:42 AM

#26

Wizard-50

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 5,783

<3 ClayDol and appreciate your posts.

I think you're being a weird kind of negative results oriented though. Sure sometimes you run into a tardo that jams TT here and you feel like an idiot for making a huge "mistake" of estimating his shoving range. I think you are just not thinking about the times you call with 88 and get shown 22 or call AQ and get shown AT. I find its much more frequent to run into the latter than the former. So if you're folding so that you don't make a "big mistake" then IMO you have just made a big mistake.

02-22-2011 , 11:21 AM

#27

betgo

banned

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 28,590

Quote:

Originally Posted by OMGClayDol

hahaha ya like i said i made two mistakes when posting that but i still dont really see the bottom of those ranges doing well vs the "average" range here, if you want to call wide then sure, go for it, but a bad call here will be way way worse than a bad fold (bad meaning we overestimate how wide he is)... how often do you think this is a random shoving QJo as opposed to a reg shoving KK/AA, meh.

When OP apparently shows weakness with the complete, villain could be pushing as a semibluff figuring OP almost never has a hand he can call with. So yeh, I think it could be the type of hand you might do a smaller overshove with, like broadway cards, Axs, or a small pp.

Certainly possible it is sort of for value with a mid pp or big ace or he is trying to win a big pot with AA/KK.

Just think this is probably a better play with QJ or something than AA, so hard to put him on a big pair.

Also, there is some chance he has to go somewhere, misclicked, or thinks it is good for image somehow.

02-22-2011 , 12:07 PM

#28

OMGClayDol

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 11,065

"smaller overshove" wat, this is for 50bb (!!!!!!!)

Spoiler:

not saying i disagree with your/others' posts overall, i guess i just haven't been around long enough to see more of the spazzes people can have in this spot lol

02-22-2011 , 12:17 PM

#29

betgo

banned

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 28,590

Quote:

Originally Posted by OMGClayDol

"smaller overshove" wat, this is for 50bb (!!!!!!!)

Spoiler:

not saying i disagree with your/others' posts overall, i guess i just haven't been around long enough to see more of the spazzes people can have in this spot lol

I am not saying shoving QJo is a great play or anything. You get more value seeing the flop for free with position.

However, if OP is calling TT+,AQs+ or something like that and he usually raises with those hands initially anyway, the push is profitable. Kind of hard for pushing to be more profitable than checking with usually the better hand in position.

It's not really the best way to play AA/KK or JJ/AK or whatever either. Since the play is obviously not the best with any hand, it is hard to read what villain might decide to do this with.

02-22-2011 , 12:26 PM

#30

OMGClayDol

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 11,065

lol yea i guess, running the numbers seems profitable shove with QJo funnily enough :/

02-22-2011 , 03:54 PM

#31

betgo

banned

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 28,590

Quote:

Originally Posted by OMGClayDol

lol yea i guess, running the numbers seems profitable shove with QJo funnily enough :/

It's a profitable shove, but checking or raising to 2.5-4xBB is probably significantly more profitable unless SB has a big skill advantage.

It is also possible that BB thinks SB is a good player or has had problems with playing him in previous hands and doesn't want to play postflop against him.

The push is much better with QJ or A3s or whatever than with AA. If you just raise, you probably get like 60% calls, 30% folds, and 10% reraises. When you push, you get called maybe 4% of the time. When you do, you get a big pot, but I think you lose value with aces.

02-22-2011 , 05:34 PM

#32

Oscar Belgium

adept

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,097

wtf
open pre.....as played fold.....
QQ and AK are snaps though

02-22-2011 , 10:22 PM

#33

rumnchess

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 4,485

Ya I'm calling 88/AQ and am very excited when I have TT+. OMG, you are vastly overestimating the strength of villain's range here. A range which marek correctly asserts is a combination of various ranges of a sea of different fish prototypes

02-22-2011 , 10:58 PM

#34

betgo

banned

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 28,590

Quote:

Originally Posted by rumnchess

Yes, this shove is a bad play with any possible hand, so it is hard to put villain on a range. It is actually a worse play with QQ+ than with anything else, because you lose so much value.