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Old 01-25-2011, 06:27 PM   #1
Chuck Bass
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EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

Villain is an american 25-30 year oldish, online player looking guy. He has an accent so american there's no chance he's not, and he doesn't have any badges so he's not a qualifier. In case you don't know Deauville is a dead town in the middle of nowhere, so it's hard to believe any non-competent americans would fly here for the fun of it. He could even be some well-known US player, I hardly recognize any non-european pros.

The table is full of terrible French players, he seems to be the only one who has a clue. I'm sure we both think that there's no value for us clashing since everyone else is so bad. He's actually playing really well based on the first couple of hours. His sizings suggest he's more likely an mtter than a cash gamer. He's been caught 4bet bluffing once in a spot I thought was very good to try that out, and he's played very well post-flop.

We both have over 2x average (starting stack 30k). We both got our stacks in a pretty standard manner stacking French donks, there are no special dynamics going on between us two and there's no history.

100/200 no ante, 3rd level of the day. He limps UTG. He's overlimped once or twice and open limped once, this is a really good table for open limping imo so I don't think that suggests he's fishy or anything. Based on what I've seen before he'd definitely raise AQ and AA here though, he's not a tarpy kind of a guy and the players are so bad he could raise AQ to 6x and still get called by a random A2o.

So, he limps UTG. Two other guys limp, I make it 1050 from the hijack with AQ. He calls quite quickly and one of the limpers calls too.

Flop 22Q (~3600)
He leads for 2100, the other guy folds, I call.

Turn Q (7800)
He bets 4600, I call.

River A (17000)
He bets 11k. In retrospect my sizing here is pretty horrendous but anyway I make it 24000. He shoves for about 55k effective. I...
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Old 01-25-2011, 06:55 PM   #2
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

Give us the timing of all the river action.
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Old 01-25-2011, 07:09 PM   #3
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

I definetely enhance your opinion that he never plays AQ/AA that way pf. Though my first opinion was I could see him limp-3betting with AA utg, but after I reread your thoughts about limping at the table generally it is very very unlikely.
You see him as the best opponent at this table, as you are in his eyes for sure I think, so getting you of a chop with a Q were he should never have AQ in his range and he prolly knows that as well or a naked bluff; this chance is about 0%, especially after half of your stack is in the middle. So I think you made a great laydown if you did it, cause I cant see any hand but the black ducks, and I dont hate donking quads here at all..First of all, I didnt like his river-sizing though, cause he has to think you are only paying him off with Qs and AA so I would have considered he bets more like 14k-21k but after I rethink about it I like the idea cause you are raising AQ/AA for sure though...
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Old 01-25-2011, 07:10 PM   #4
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

Timing for all actions, should be pretty accurate.

Pre: limps after 5-10 seconds, calls really quickly after 2-3 seconds.

Flop: thinks for 10-15 seconds and bets.

Turn: a bit longer, like 10-20 seconds and bets.

River: bets after 15-20 seconds. I take about the same to raise, maybe a tiny bit shorter (i thought that the longer i think the more nutsalicious it's going to look). He thinks for what I think was 30 or 40 seconds and shoves. Could've been more actually, but it felt like an eternity so I can't say for sure. But anyway the time he spent before shoving the river was the longest in all of his decisions, but not drastically longer.
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Old 01-25-2011, 07:41 PM   #5
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

I see why you'd want to fold....but I would not.
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Old 01-25-2011, 07:49 PM   #6
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

You basically have to call, but unfortunately his value range is {22}. So it's really just a question of how much more often he's bluffing than holding quads -- I would tend to think it's enough to justify a call.
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Old 01-25-2011, 08:10 PM   #7
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

Is he really donking the flop with air with the intention to 3-barrel-bluff here against a spewy french and his best opponent at this table at this stage on that table?? Cant see a worse timing to do so as hero described him..and I dnt think "balancing" his flop-donk accomplishes anything here...
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Old 01-25-2011, 08:32 PM   #8
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

don't see how you could fold, although do see him limping small pp's utg and flatting ur pre raise... call? hell could be qx... definatelly don't see it being 22 seeing him lead the flop and turn and river
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Old 01-25-2011, 08:39 PM   #9
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

why would he rather donk a Q than 22 on that flop...I mean I kinda dnt understand the sense behind that thinking,sry???
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Old 01-25-2011, 08:45 PM   #10
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

is this thread real
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:01 PM   #11
Chuck Bass
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

Anyone saying "is this thread real" / "he could have Qx" is probably not very good at poker.

I got a lof of **** for folding from people I respect and I could see arguments for not doing that, but him having Qx is not one of them. NO ONE at a 5k EPT apart from the french is bad enough to 3bet a random Q here (or to have it based on ANY street for that matter), and even if someone is, I would wager my grandmother that this guy wasn't.

I think it's more likely he folds a random Q (if he somehow has one) to my river raise than that he 3bets it.

Last edited by Chuck Bass; 01-25-2011 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:13 PM   #12
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

don't post in hsmtt often but when he 3b shoves river I think this is a fold. Limp call 22 utg is def viable (I would raise 22 to begin with personally).

If he flopped quads, definitely a great board to bet. Same with turn and river.

Say he did have QJ, wouldn't he just call your raise on the river? If he thought you had AA and he had QJ, he wouldn't 3bet. He knows your not stupid enough to raise KK on the river. Maybe raise the turn? In game I know I prob wouldn't.

Disgusting but I think it's a fold
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:20 PM   #13
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Bass View Post
Anyone saying "is this thread real" / "he could have Qx" is probably not very good at poker.

I got a lof of **** for folding from people I respect and I could see arguments for not doing that, but him having Qx is not one of them. NO ONE at a 5k EPT apart from the french is bad enough to 3bet a random Q here (or to have it based on ANY street for that matter), and even if someone is, I would wager my grandmother that this guy wasn't.

I think it's more likely he folds a random Q (if he somehow has one) to my river raise than that he 3bets it.
If its so clear, did u make this thread to get a pat on ur back for making an incredible laydown, or whats the point?
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:31 PM   #14
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

I doubt I lay this down but I certainly understand your logic here and this thread is way more real then the QJ in the other thread vs david benyamine.....

I mean.....
I doubt this is ever a bluff.....
I doubt he plays a queen this way....whats the reason in 3betting river.....
I doubt he plays AA this way....would be pretty weird imo
Why would he tank on river for 40 sec with 22 (could obv be a fake tank) but its pretty obvious ur rly nutted after your river range or are bluffing and arent putting another chip into the pot.....

Guess it comes down to how he perceives you, if u have any history and if you have been spewy at any point.....

Still think chances are too high that he'll turn up with AQ, Qx or a bluff or that you're giving him too much credit for this to be a fold with the odds that you are getting, but certainly understand ur not rly happy about it

EDIT: if u folded...and I suppose u openfolded, just go ask the guy tomorrow what he had...most ppl will be honest when ur not at the same table anymore
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:33 PM   #15
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

genius fold ingame id say. dont see how he ever shows up without 22 in that spot.
ill only explain the thoughts on river raise and 3bet cause i think flop and turn dont contradict with the river action at all and are really good lines, esp the quads

his 11k river bet gets raised which could be a bluff occasionally but is already quite unlikely under the circumstances that the whole rest of the table is easymoney and its risking 24k (half stack) against competent opp. thus he has to think about the river value raise range mostly which equals Qx (cause he himself cant ever have AQ or AA) , AQ, AA.
But a naked Q might not always raise him on the river, AQ and AA always do though. since he cant rep better than a Q except the black deuces there is little sense in 3bet bluffing trying to get chuckbass of a bare Q or the occasional bluff, since he mostly will be called by AQ and AA which he cant expect to ever fold as seen by most ppls reactions. This makes his river shove a valueshove only and the black deuces his only holding to do it with!

Have to admit that its a sickening fold ingame and as chuckbass opp i woulda feel raped of 30k :P


Off-topic spoiler alert: WSOP schedule is out! Weeeeeeeeee
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:48 PM   #16
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Bass View Post
Anyone saying "is this thread real" / "he could have Qx" is probably not very good at poker.

I got a lof of **** for folding from people I respect and I could see arguments for not doing that, but him having Qx is not one of them. NO ONE at a 5k EPT apart from the french is bad enough to 3bet a random Q here (or to have it based on ANY street for that matter), and even if someone is, I would wager my grandmother that this guy wasn't.

I think it's more likely he folds a random Q (if he somehow has one) to my river raise than that he 3bets it.
NH
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:55 PM   #17
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

what was going through your mind when you raised the river? that he could have some Qx and hell just call you and not get it in? i cant see r/f here at this point. hes not a computer that wont make a single mistake pertaining to having a Qx hand. would he fold Qx to a shove? obv hed call 22 AA and AQ but according to you hes 3b nothing thats worse than you on the river. also according to not being a retard. what im getting at is you should have just flatted his lead if you were planning on folding to a shove since hes never bluffing and really the only hand he could have that would call a river raise is KQss.
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:25 PM   #18
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

Why is 3betting a random Qx bad?
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Old 01-25-2011, 11:16 PM   #19
Chuck Bass
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

There are no results btw so this is not a brag thread.

Why would 3betting the river with Qx be good, except if he thought he could get me off AQ/Qx with it and use the Q as a blocker, which I think is a bit of a sick assumption to make especially as I can easily have AA as well?

Last edited by Chuck Bass; 01-25-2011 at 11:28 PM.
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Old 01-25-2011, 11:51 PM   #20
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

Since you think it very unlikely that he would limp pre with AQ or AA, what is the difference for you between having AA or AQ here?
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:22 AM   #21
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Bass View Post

I think it's more likely he folds a random Q (if he somehow has one) to my river raise than that he 3bets it.
Come on.
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:28 AM   #22
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

this is a ***** joke
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:29 AM   #23
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

Shove river rather than raise small... (even if he thinks you're amazing, I don't think he'll fold qx+ as even good players such as yourself often have the 'i haz a full house, i is arr in' mentality, and he probably knows that)

As played I don't fold and I'm pretty nitty on rivers and love hero folding..
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:31 AM   #24
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

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Originally Posted by Suitedbut View Post
Shove river... (even if he thinks you're amazing, I don't think he'll fold qx+ as even good players such as yourself often have the 'i haz a full house, i is arr in' mentality, and he probably knows that)

As played I don't fold and I'm pretty nitty on rivers and love hero folding..
Ya +1 to shove river
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Old 01-26-2011, 12:33 AM   #25
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Re: EPT Deauville 5k main: considering raise-folding relative 2nd nuts

He has the other AQ way more often than 22. This is different than the other pca boat vs straight flush thread in that benyamine was way more likely to have straight flush than nut boat.
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