05-07-2013 , 09:48 AM
Easy fold.
05-07-2013 , 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beachman42
That's an over-simplification that works well when you assign homogenous unknown cards. In this case, we know where 2 Ks are. He cannot be 4.76% likely to have KK here. It can be 4.76% of an assigned range but then you need to weight your range based upon everything else you know.
No.

We're eliminating combos based on the action. The old man does not have every possible card in the deck after he makes it 2500 pre and jams over a 15K raise.
05-07-2013 , 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverScaredB
No.

We're eliminating combos based on the action. The old man does not have every possible card in the deck after he makes it 2500 pre and jams over a 15K raise.
Ok, Ok. Uncle. I completely understand the assignment of ranges. However, I doubt that V has KK 1/20 times here. I'll accept that he has exactly KK somewhere between .08% (theoretical blind calculation) and 4.76% (simplified weighting of all cards Q or higher).
05-08-2013 , 04:13 AM
That means you either don't believe his range is exactly QQ+/AK or you don't believe in math.
05-08-2013 , 04:37 AM
Which limper reraises is pretty important here not sure how people answering without this info.
05-08-2013 , 09:39 AM
gameflow spot. default fold, but can find a call if BB showing signs of frustration/tilt/boredom.
05-09-2013 , 12:56 AM
But how can you assess what the limp/raiser has without his original position. If he is calling after 4 people on the button the chance of him having it is way lower obviously this in turn will effect how the BB reacts to his jam etc..
05-13-2013 , 12:10 AM
05-13-2013 , 02:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThugPoker
You're 100+bb deep in one of the softest tournaments of the year with a really good hand.

edit: for some reason thought this was wsop ME. Maybe not softest tournaments of the year but I can't imagine ept berlin main is super tough or anything. At least gotta be enough fish that make 3x >>>>>>> 2x when you have 100+bb and KK.
05-13-2013 , 03:17 AM
But if ure gonna only 3xlike QQ + and AK or some nutty range - ure gonna get abused when u 2x.. Also I think 2x increases the likelihood you get 3b significantly - I really think preflop open sizing is the least understood poker concept ... And one of the most overrated ... Ppl hem and has over it all day .. But rarely Have anything to say about post flop sizing they just say you should "bet " or "raise" , post flop sizing is so much more important
05-13-2013 , 05:24 AM
Back raiser can have TT -JJ / Ak here right . So then shouldn't bb be capable of having QQ here ?
05-13-2013 , 04:31 PM
1. I think 3xing in general is better 100bb deep, there's a reason that's the standard raise in most positions by good players in cash games
2. it's a live mtt no one's going to pick up on that since the early stage only lasts for a little bit and the table's probably soft enough for it to not even matter if you turn your hand face up to regs.
05-14-2013 , 08:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThugPoker
Back raiser can have TT -JJ / Ak here right . So then shouldn't bb be capable of having QQ here ?
My thoughts exactly.your hand is disguised when you flat the 2500. old guy flatting the 400 and shipping over the 2500/call is interesting.. love to know what position he was in when calling the 400. Idk tough spot. im a lagtard so id prolly get it in and would have 4bet the bb initially. sucks folding KK but sucks more having your stack in the middle with KK and seeing AA turned over.
05-16-2013 , 04:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SickerThanYoAvg
Don't level yourself into thinking you can fold KK correctly. Maybe if its on the bubble you could consider it (although i wouldnt) but folding KK pre is just not a +EV play
This^^^
05-17-2013 , 02:35 AM
despite that it's kinda likely that at least one of them has aces, whats the best case scenario? obv QQ vs QQ vs KK; AK vs AK vs KK...

even if we make the call and even if they flip over AK and QQ, do we wanna get it in there with KK vs 45% equity with our stack and edge? sure with hands being face up and us being a tournament pro we prolly have to call then, but with the pretty high possibility of one of them holding aces i think i would fold that in an EPT main. especially with those huge stack sizes vs some random players. in case somebody said never fold kings pre, that's just wrong.

and we have 36% vs 2x QQ+,AK range, who both have 32%. if i think i have an edge, there's no way i get it in there. think we can agree that neither of them has anything worse than AK/QQ+? yeah sucks that we invested quite a bit, but still, i think we lost the minimum with our line!

with aces we win almost 3/4 times vs both guys, with kings only slightly more than 1/3 time. huge diff obv, if we win 4/12 times or 9/12 times. wouldn't regret the fold at all unless i would've flopped a set or smth.

edit: not saying it's a standard fold! i just lean towards a fold. vs one guy i think we need a special read to fold kings. vs the guys i think we need a special read to justify a call in this spot.
05-18-2013 , 09:44 AM
Fold. Age is critical variable here.
05-20-2013 , 12:52 AM
even if we make the call and even if they flip over AK and QQ, do we wanna get it in there with KK vs 45% equity with our stack and edge? sure with hands being face up and us being a tournament pro we prolly have to call then, but with the pretty high possibility of one of them holding aces i think i would fold that in an EPT main. especially with those huge stack sizes vs some random players. in case somebody said never fold kings pre, that's just wrong.

Getting 2:1 yes we really really do want to get it in with 55% even with 50 % we will have an quite of 1.5x starting stack that edge Is bigger then Ak vs AQ -ll in preflop
05-20-2013 , 01:08 AM
ez fold
05-22-2013 , 11:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThugPoker