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Old 07-21-2008, 02:37 PM   #26
KingDan
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

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Originally Posted by Bond18 View Post
I love that 'edit: Do/does X blaze?' has now become standard in your strategy posts and clearly has a large impact on your read of the situation.
More tactful then asking "Are you ****ing ******ed?"
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Old 07-21-2008, 02:49 PM   #27
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

srsly? come on.
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Old 07-21-2008, 02:50 PM   #28
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

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Originally Posted by KingDan View Post
More tactful then asking "Are you ****ing ******ed?"
Where does my response fall on the "tactness" scale?
 
Old 07-21-2008, 03:27 PM   #29
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

it was a pretty tactful way of saying 'lol'
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Old 07-21-2008, 03:46 PM   #30
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

Ok, here's what I don't understand:

You are way above average in chips with few players remaining. Surely you are better than 95% of the remaining field. Why get in a flip situation (at best) when you can no doubt quickly get the 28k back in one hand?

No make-a no sense.

edit: mods please move to small stakes

Last edited by lovedemdeuces; 07-21-2008 at 03:49 PM. Reason: such a simple hand
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Old 07-21-2008, 04:19 PM   #31
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

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Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
Wait, what am I missing here? How is this anything but a "maybe pretend to tank for 5 seconds before mucking" fold? If he thinks you're a straightforward nit, he likely thinks your 3betting range is weighted towards stronger hands that might call a 4bet shove. I think his range is weighted towards strong hands here, despite his nationality.

If he's bluffing, you're almost always a flip, and there are a whole lot more ways for him to be bluffing as a 4:1 favorite rather than a 4:1 dog. I mean, even against some absurdly wide range like {22+,A2s+,KJs+,AJo+,KQo}, 44 doesn't even have 44% equity, so in the absolutely unrealistic best case it's a breakeven, super high variance call. In realistic scenarios, it's -EV.

I call if he shows me AKo or 98s, because I think we're getting 1.27-1 from the pot and in one case you're a favorite and the in the other case you're a 1.1-1 dog. That's a pretty decent edge, and I don't think highly enough of my live game relative to the people who are probably left to think it's one worth passing up. Maybe someone like Phil Hellmuth should, though! I mean, if you have 7% the chips in play with 60 people left, imagine how hard you will crush the final table (and possibly even other payout jump) bubbles.

Jesus ****ing Christ, 3-5 minutes? Are you sure you aren't John Phan?

Oh, and I 3bet smaller pre if I 3bet at all. Maybe 25k straight.
yeah
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Old 07-21-2008, 04:42 PM   #32
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

I haven't read any responses but wanted to say I think this is forcing things to the Nth degree. Just fuggin' call preflop and spike the 4 and THEN WORK ON STACKING HIM. Geesh. As played, are you serious? Fold and berate yourself silently for not calling preflop.
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Old 07-21-2008, 04:49 PM   #33
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

Ive read this like 4 times and I just dont get it at all
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Old 07-21-2008, 05:24 PM   #34
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

i definitely dont think 3betting is as bad as others have said, although i dont like your sizing, but wtffffffffffff at tanking for minutes after his 4b, lol phanaments.
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Old 07-21-2008, 08:04 PM   #35
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

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Originally Posted by AGame18 View Post
lol? These statements are like ******edly opposite and don't make any sense. DUCY?


Not that I blame you too much, because this whole thread is ******ed too. Sry cornell but wtf at this hand. Show me a range you're priced in against. I think TT or JJ would be a decision here. 44 is a snapfold ldo.
the reason i don't mind the tanking is that it helps preserve your tight image; and if it takes you that long to convince yourself to fold, then it's better to take the time and make the right decision. I guess 5 minutes is excessive as it is pre-flop and it can't be that complicated. Live I sometimes don't take my time.
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Old 07-21-2008, 09:58 PM   #36
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

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Old 07-22-2008, 12:08 AM   #37
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

I don’t really like the 3-bet with 44 because he is getting ~ 2-to-1 immediately and 12-to-1 in potential odds and your read is that he thinks he might be able to blow you off good hands. If he calls, your equity will suck on most flops and your implied odds are ruined and your fold equity will be hard to quantify.

The probability that he will fold postflop to your c-bet is hard to guesstimate because he could either be playing fit-or-fold with his speculative hands or looking to play back hard on your nitty, weak image with his draws, or he could be slowplaying his strongest hands because the stacks are pretty good for it.

A pure bluff reraise with ATC, depending on his exact standards, probably ranges from slightly –EV to slightly +EV even if you never win after being called or 4-bet.

The problem is when he calls you’re in a really bad spot with 4x the pot and a hand that sucks > 85% of the time where you’re restricted to a bet/fold or check/behind/fold to turn bet strategy. Since you will have very low equity on the flop most of the time, you will feel obligated to c-bet a lot and the 3-bet plus the c-bet will cost ~ 20% of your stack in a really thin spot when the alternative is to call for less than 3% of your stack in a surely profitable spot.

If you flat, you will have 13x the pot on the flop HU, and will be in a good, potentially really profitable spot in position. You also encourage the blinds to come along with isn’t all that bad.

Also, even if he opens as wide as:

22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,64s+,5 3s+,A8o+,KJo+ = 22.5%

UTG, he will have KK+ or AK 9.4% of the time. This is kind of significant because you will get 4-bet 1 in 10 times, and in those cases you might have won a big pot if you flopped a set and he has KK+ or gets crazy or when you hit a set and he flops well too.

Last edited by VespaRally; 07-22-2008 at 12:17 AM.
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Old 07-22-2008, 12:37 AM   #38
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

I cannot believe I read all the build up in the OP just to discover that he was shoved on while holding 44 when both he and opponent were uber deep. Jeez, save us some time in the future. Folds don't get much easier or more obvious.
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Old 07-22-2008, 12:55 AM   #39
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

but maybe he has 33
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Old 07-22-2008, 09:24 AM   #40
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

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Originally Posted by Cornell Fiji View Post
I think that this might have been the most interesting hand that I played during the 40 or so tournaments that I played in this summer.
This saddens me a great deal.
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Old 07-22-2008, 09:42 AM   #41
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

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Originally Posted by LearnedfromTV View Post
but maybe he has 33


Tank for 10 seconds then mutter something about jacks as you fold. Thinking player raises utg, you haven't played a hand since he's been there and you 3 bet his utg raise. He's not trying to level you, he's trying to get you to call with QQ...
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Old 07-22-2008, 11:34 AM   #42
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

speaking of aitinf for a better spot wait for a better spot to 3bet than with 44 wait til u get like 46s or something dont 3bet and takeaway ur huge postflop valuye here with 44,thats very dumb.yes its a good spot to 3bet and im sure u will have another 15 chances to 3bet him in pos because u don break until 18 players left.as played obv fold.
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Old 07-22-2008, 11:53 AM   #43
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

play to win? Call....
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Old 07-22-2008, 12:27 PM   #44
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

okay, so everybody thinks that we should not get another 72.5 bbs in with pocket fours.

What hands are you calling the shove with given these reads? JJ?QQ?KK?AKo?
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Old 07-22-2008, 12:51 PM   #45
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandiFan View Post


Tank for 10 seconds then mutter something about jacks as you fold. Thinking player raises utg, you haven't played a hand since he's been there and you 3 bet his utg raise. He's not trying to level you, he's trying to get you to call with QQ...
Flash one four and fold instantly.

sheets
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Old 07-22-2008, 01:02 PM   #46
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

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Originally Posted by Cornell Fiji View Post
okay, so everybody thinks that we should not get another 72.5 bbs in with pocket fours.

What hands are you calling the shove with given these reads? JJ?QQ?KK?AKo? 44?
yes, yes, yes, yes, NO
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Old 07-22-2008, 01:18 PM   #47
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

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Originally Posted by Cornell Fiji View Post
okay, so everybody thinks that we should not get another 72.5 bbs in with pocket fours.

What hands are you calling the shove with given these reads? JJ?QQ?KK?AKo?

yeah, these are all a bit different than 44.
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Old 07-22-2008, 01:30 PM   #48
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

Why did you 3-bet preflop?

Lol u r a superuzer.
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Old 07-22-2008, 01:52 PM   #49
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

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yeah, these are all a bit different than 44.

What weighted range are you putting him on that JJ is that different from 44?
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Old 07-22-2008, 02:23 PM   #50
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

JJ has at least a 2% equity edge on 44 vs. every hand that isn't 43-
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