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Old 07-20-2008, 10:22 PM   #1
Cornell Fiji
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Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

I think that this might have been the most interesting hand that I played during the 40 or so tournaments that I played in this summer. Because live hands, especially those where you stack off 90 bbs preflop with pocket fours, are so read/situation dependent I am including every single detail that might be relevant in this post. Feel free to skim to the bottom if you just want the boring ole hand history.

$5k buyin 6 handed tournament. 809 runners.

78 spots paid.
67 players remain.

66th pays $9080
60th pays $9837
54th pays $10,272...
18th pays $32,000...
6th pays $120,000...
1st pays $911,000


I have 330k chips
Opponent has 260k chips
Tourney average stack is 120k

Other stacks at my table are:
me (330k) --> Bad tight player (60k) --> Aggro scandi (100k) --> Weak player 60k --> opponent (220k) --> young Sweede (40k.)

Our table will not break until we get down to 18 players and reshuffle.

I am 3rd in chips in the tournament (elky is first with 450k) and opponent is around 6th in chips.

Opponent was at my starting table on day one, we were 5th to break and I played very tight, probably only playing 10-15% of hands and probably not showing down anything notable. I made one big play but didn't show it down but other than that was playing TAG. Opponent was playing 20-25% of hands and very creative/aggressive postflop on day one and is clearly a high level player. He most likely does not think the same of me at this point as I seem relatively straightforward to him. We did not tangle in any memorable pots. As the table broke on day one it came up that he was from Sweden, I mentioned this surprised me because of his dark complexion and that I would have played him differently had I known that. I am not sure if he made note of this conversation with 780 people still remaining in the tournament.

After our table broke I went on a roller coaster, playing a ton of hands starting around the dinner break (it was a 6 max after all) and becoming a massive chip leader by the end of day one, spewing it all off making several mistakes in the last hour of the day, and then amassing a huge stack again on day two. I doubt that the opponent was aware of any of this as he did not seem to interact with other players in the tournament while we were on breaks.

An hour ago I was moved to his table with 350,000 chips and I have not played a single hand. I have not defended my blinds (he was button on my BB,) I have not stolen the blinds, I have not had the opportunity to do anything. While I have been super aggressive most of the tournament it is likely that the opponent perceives me as being extremely tight and straightforward.

Opponent in the hand is Ferit Gabriellson :



He is an extremely smart/strong/aggro player and is definitely capable of higher level thinking and making moves. He is not a straight forward player as he is able to make big plays and pick up a lot of chips. He has been extremely active in the past hour since I was moved to his table.


I have 330k chips
Opponent has 260k chips

Blinds 1500/3000/100a. The blind structure is quite good and there are no big jumps coming up.

Opponent raises to 8500 under the gun and I reraise to 28,000 in the cut off with 4h4d. I believe that he will fold to this raise a lot because he perceives me as being tight and when he does call I will be able to take the pot away from him often. Obviously 3-betting 4s is not my default but this seemed to be a great spot for it.

It folds to him and he pauses a minute before shoving for 220,000 more.


I am not sure if he thinks highly enough of me to think that I would interpret his shove as weak and would be capable of calling light. I believe that he thinks it is more likely that I will make a big fold than a big call. It is also possible that he thinks he has a read that my hand is not huge though I am pretty good at representing what I want with my tells and I was leaking strength.

If I had to guess I think that usually the overshove is not an attempt to induce a loose call but he is a smart - crazy Swede so anything is possible.


Call or fold?

What do you think he is usually making this play with?

Given that we both have huge stacks and that this is a slow structure are you calling if he turns over 89s? AKo?

Am I crazy for tanking for 3-5 minutes on this hand?

Last edited by Cornell Fiji; 07-20-2008 at 10:35 PM.
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Old 07-20-2008, 10:35 PM   #2
sickreadhachem
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornell Fiji View Post
Opponent raises to 8500 under the gun and I reraise to 28,000 in the cut off with 4h4d. I believe that he will fold to this raise a lot because he perceives me as being tight and when he does call I will be able to take the pot away from him often. Obviously 3-betting 4s is not my default but this seemed to be a great spot for it.


Call or fold?

What do you think he is usually making this play with?

Given that we both have huge stacks and that this is a slow structure are you calling if he turns over 89s? AKo?

Am I crazy for tanking for 3-5 minutes on this hand?
I'm curious to why you would choose an utg raise as most exploitable? Also, if he calls your re-raise, do you really think you will be able to take it away from him???

That being said, maybe he has 22 or 33 and you have him crushed!!! Otherwise...
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Old 07-20-2008, 10:37 PM   #3
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

Maybe this is way over my head, but this seems like a pretty easy fold to me.
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Old 07-20-2008, 10:39 PM   #4
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

I dont think he flat calling your reraise out of position with these stack sizes with any degree of frequency where the "I can take it away on the flop" variations amount to much. As such you are turning 44 into 72 off UNLESS you are willing to call a shove.

Given that you have appeared tight and that he has 4 bet shoved you in spite of that, he has a monster, certainly enough where you must fold 44. This, of course, reinforces what you already suspected, that reraising pre is probably not the best.

If he turns over 89 or ak you should call for all of the obvious reasons.


sheets
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Old 07-20-2008, 10:44 PM   #5
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

You know I wanna fold Steve.
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Old 07-20-2008, 10:44 PM   #6
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheetsworld View Post
I dont think he flat calling your reraise out of position with these stack sizes with any degree of frequency where the "I can take it away on the flop" variations amount to much.
Why is this? Both players are incredibly deep.
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Old 07-20-2008, 10:49 PM   #7
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

You haven't played a hand for an hour, before that the guy thought you were fairly tight, you 3bet his UTG raise, it looks like you have a huge hand. If he turns over 98 or AK you should fold for obvious reasons.

Edit: Just adding that you haven't played a hand for an hour in a 6-max, guy probably thinks you're a tight version of Allen Kessler. I think he has AA here.
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Old 07-20-2008, 10:49 PM   #8
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheetsworld View Post
I dont think he flat calling your reraise out of position with these stack sizes with any degree of frequency where the "I can take it away on the flop" variations amount to much. As such you are turning 44 into 72 off UNLESS you are willing to call a shove.

Given that you have appeared tight and that he has 4 bet shoved you in spite of that, he has a monster, certainly enough where you must fold 44. This, of course, reinforces what you already suspected, that reraising pre is probably not the best.

If he turns over 89 or ak you should call for all of the obvious reasons.


sheets

He is definitely capable of flatting pf, calling 20k into 40k with 220k behind.

I have seen him make calls with pairs, AQ, SCs getting worse odds both immediate and implied.

I was actually pretty shocked by the fact that he 4 bet as I think this would be a pretty bad spot to 4 bet AA/KK/AK to 78k as it conveys extreme strength (I think the play is less bad with AK because of card removal considerations though he would probably have to fold to a 5 bet shove making it somewhat suspect since he could play the hand for its value if he just calls).

I also think that shoving an additional 75bbs with a hand like AA would be a waste as he perceives me as being much tighter than I am and he might think I am capable of making a big laydown; however, if he flats with AA in his mind he is guaranteed to win (or lose) a big pot given the range that he probably has me on.
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Old 07-20-2008, 11:03 PM   #9
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

Wait, what am I missing here? How is this anything but a "maybe pretend to tank for 5 seconds before mucking" fold? If he thinks you're a straightforward nit, he likely thinks your 3betting range is weighted towards stronger hands that might call a 4bet shove. I think his range is weighted towards strong hands here, despite his nationality.

If he's bluffing, you're almost always a flip, and there are a whole lot more ways for him to be bluffing as a 4:1 favorite rather than a 4:1 dog. I mean, even against some absurdly wide range like {22+,A2s+,KJs+,AJo+,KQo}, 44 doesn't even have 44% equity, so in the absolutely unrealistic best case it's a breakeven, super high variance call. In realistic scenarios, it's -EV.

I call if he shows me AKo or 98s, because I think we're getting 1.27-1 from the pot and in one case you're a favorite and the in the other case you're a 1.1-1 dog. That's a pretty decent edge, and I don't think highly enough of my live game relative to the people who are probably left to think it's one worth passing up. Maybe someone like Phil Hellmuth should, though! I mean, if you have 7% the chips in play with 60 people left, imagine how hard you will crush the final table (and possibly even other payout jump) bubbles.

Jesus ****ing Christ, 3-5 minutes? Are you sure you aren't John Phan?

Oh, and I 3bet smaller pre if I 3bet at all. Maybe 25k straight.
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Old 07-20-2008, 11:05 PM   #10
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

You are a tight player reraising an utg opener nearing the bubble...You are representing QQ/KK/AA/AK and if I have AA or KK utg I am giving thou the pile , hoping you have what u represent. I think he has QQ/KK/AA/AK.

If he has a smaller pair I can see him flatting to set mine I suppose, so maybe reraising small isnt bad...but isnt just calling pre so much easier?

This is, to me, the perfect time to be flatting pre with 44. (vs big stack slow structure etc)

In either case, fold to the shove.


sheets
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Old 07-20-2008, 11:05 PM   #11
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornell Fiji View Post

Am I crazy for tanking for 3-5 minutes on this hand?
yes
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Old 07-20-2008, 11:05 PM   #12
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

sheets nailed this one, also call pre would be my std but 3b isnt terrible or anything
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Old 07-20-2008, 11:52 PM   #13
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornell Fiji View Post


Call or fold?

What do you think he is usually making this play with?

Given that we both have huge stacks and that this is a slow structure are you calling if he turns over 89s? AKo?

Am I crazy for tanking for 3-5 minutes on this hand?

(w/o reading other replies)

you've played so tight, I think he's only making this play with premium hands, or perhaps something just shy or premium that doesn't want to see an ace or king like 99-QQ. also your stack size and his stack size make me think he's only doing this with premium. but you've also played weak - never defended your blinds and never stole so maybe not so maybe I'm wrong.

I wouldn't want to flip at this stage with these stack sizes.

no you're not crazy for tanking.
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Old 07-21-2008, 12:00 AM   #14
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.WeakTight View Post

you've played so tight, I think he's only making this play with premium hands, or perhaps something just shy or premium that doesn't want to see an ace or king like 99-QQ. also your stack size and his stack size make me think he's only doing this with premium. but you've also played weak - never defended your blinds and never stole so maybe not so maybe I'm wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.WeakTight View Post
no you're not crazy for tanking.
lol? These statements are like ******edly opposite and don't make any sense. DUCY?


Not that I blame you too much, because this whole thread is ******ed too. Sry cornell but wtf at this hand. Show me a range you're priced in against. I think TT or JJ would be a decision here. 44 is a snapfold ldo.
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Old 07-21-2008, 12:01 AM   #15
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

i dont see how you can even think about calling
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Old 07-21-2008, 12:01 AM   #16
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

seriously?

EDIT: do u blaze?
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Old 07-21-2008, 12:55 AM   #17
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

don't get me wrong, i love me some overelaborate plays getting tons of chips in with weak and mediocre hands such as 44.

however, i much prefer to do the pushing.
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Old 07-21-2008, 02:09 AM   #18
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by luckychewy View Post
seriously?

EDIT: do u blaze?
I love that 'edit: Do/does X blaze?' has now become standard in your strategy posts and clearly has a large impact on your read of the situation.
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Old 07-21-2008, 09:13 AM   #19
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

Reading the post top-down I assumed he would be 4 betting small and you would shove the 44, and I was like, yeah that could work I guess...and then you want to call with them? no thx
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Old 07-21-2008, 09:31 AM   #20
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

"better spots" is overrated...but frankly, this isnt even a marginal spot.
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Old 07-21-2008, 11:23 AM   #21
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

the most easiest fold i've ever seen. and forget all the reads/ level considerations etc. that does not matter at all. thats a vacuum ezzzzzzz fold. i wouldnt even call when he is playing 98 or AK face up for $ev reasons...
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Old 07-21-2008, 11:40 AM   #22
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

Wat.
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Old 07-21-2008, 12:34 PM   #23
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

This doesn't seem close at all?
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Old 07-21-2008, 02:04 PM   #24
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

what a crazy hand. i can't see how you can start this post off saying how solid you are and how you haven't got out of line and then ur 3betting w/ 44.

you're both really deep, i can't see what would go through your head to 3bet here. sure he's v active and aggro, so 44 should be ok v his range. however, it's def not crushing his range, and if you already labeled him as active/aggressive, why are you 3betting w/ a hand you have to think this hard about what to do against a 4bet?

just seems like the easiest flat call preflop (or fold is fine too) ever. and once it gets to the point of 4bet... ur hand shoulda been in the muck before he finished the word "raise."
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Old 07-21-2008, 02:11 PM   #25
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Re: Big stacks collide in $5,000 WSOP 6 max tourney. Wait for a better spot?

Man, I hope a lot of people buy your MTT strategy book.
 

 
      

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