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Big 2 3-bet spot early... Big 2 3-bet spot early...

04-30-2013 , 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JEB262
What you have to understand when buying Sunday packages is that each player is part of a portfolio, and it's not a bad idea to have high risk, low ev players in your portfolio. I've always considered AAupmyslev to be a slightly better than average player who takes a lot of silly risks, which is why he's an overall +ev investment if you know what you are doing and have low risk players as part of your assets

That being said, I stopped buying him a long time ago when he made a ridiculous error near the final table of a major.
-EV IS -EV.

+EV IS +EV

Anyone that makes this thread is not even breakeven in the big 162 let alone breakeven if the tournament is a 150+40 which is about what the markup is i think.

This also isn't part of a sunday, this is just the big 162. He sells it individually .
04-30-2013 , 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zima421
yyyyyyyyyyes


Long live Munk!
Lol don't know why but this post has me in tears.

Zima's happiest day will be the one he signs a player for 1/4 of rake back/fpp's and 0% of profits
04-30-2013 , 06:36 PM
you want to be flatting most of your range pre ante, just so -ev busting an mtt pre ante
04-30-2013 , 08:24 PM
typically its -ev to bust an mtt during the antes too
04-30-2013 , 08:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deoxyribo
typically its -ev to bust an mtt during the antes too
how would you know? go play 2-5 at aria pussyboi
04-30-2013 , 09:28 PM
lol wat

like 5 people going full ****** in this thread
04-30-2013 , 09:36 PM
i think bparis is spot on, people dont 3bet too wide pre ante and if they do 3bet with like AJ/AQ here, they dont proceed if they get 4bet all that often. i know its BTN vs CO blabla, still people dont spazz off 100bbs in the first level of the big162.

also i think some posts are kinda rough on OP. in most live MTTs its gonna be really horrible to get in AK for 100bb pre ante. although i agree that OP shouldnt charge 1.175 on high stakes online MTTs if he hasnt played online for this long.
04-30-2013 , 11:49 PM
Wow...

Some regs are never (or almost never to the point where despite having the rare air ball in their range, their overall range is still nutted) light here pre ante
Yes co vs btn, yes you have AK blockers, but against some outright folding isn't ridiculous, at worst it may be a couple BB worse than calling/4b calling/jamming without the variance etc.

I am NOT advocating folding or 4b/folding but readless/historyless it's no where near as bad as some ITT seem to think, when was the last time someone 5b shipped worse than ak jj, 95bb effective pre ante, doesn't happen often, and depending on their 3bet range 4betting so you have the odds to call against a strong range of ak Jj or ak Qq isn't good when you invested only 2bb to start. A lot of regs ship tighter than ak jj (for example AKs, Qq+ is way worse for us than ako Jj) here.

If you do the math it only works out significantly profitable if you do some generous assumptions of villain having x bluffs etc.

ICM exists from the start in tournies although it is super minor this early here, ignoring rake and skill factor say our stack is worth $150, doubling it may increase the value to "only" $285 for example, whereas in a cash game it would obviously be $300. Each chip gained > chip lost etc

4b/f any value hand (not necessarily AK specifically) does not equal definitely "turning our hand into a bluff". Major misconception. Consider rare case of standard fish who calls heaps of 3-bets with a super wide and weak range but never 4-bets without like QQ+ and maybe AK sometimes, so many hands we should 3-bet for value but fold to a 4-bet, it's not turning our hand into a bluff at all... Can apply similar ideas and thought processes against some regs in some spots..

And Zach 162s are tougher than smaller mtts (obv) but still super soft, and way less competitive in terms of reg skill compared to even small stakes cash, a huge % of the regs have no idea about postflop, deeper stacks etc etc.

Last edited by OMGClayDol; 04-30-2013 at 11:55 PM.
05-02-2013 , 12:39 AM
^^ agree that it's not turning your hand into a bluff, 4b can accomplish more by taking the lead in the hand again (being aggressive, rather than passive) and we are going to ascertain more information when we see what villain does in response to this...it's actually a pretty gross spot I think if we get 5b...but I do think simply open/folding to a 3b in this spot is incredibly nitty
05-02-2013 , 12:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMGClayDol
Wow...

Some regs are never (or almost never to the point where despite having the rare air ball in their range, their overall range is still nutted) light here pre ante
Yes co vs btn, yes you have AK blockers, but against some outright folding isn't ridiculous, at worst it may be a couple BB worse than calling/4b calling/jamming without the variance etc.

I am NOT advocating folding or 4b/folding but readless/historyless it's no where near as bad as some ITT seem to think, when was the last time someone 5b shipped worse than ak jj, 95bb effective pre ante, doesn't happen often, and depending on their 3bet range 4betting so you have the odds to call against a strong range of ak Jj or ak Qq isn't good when you invested only 2bb to start. A lot of regs ship tighter than ak jj (for example AKs, Qq+ is way worse for us than ako Jj) here.

If you do the math it only works out significantly profitable if you do some generous assumptions of villain having x bluffs etc.

ICM exists from the start in tournies although it is super minor this early here, ignoring rake and skill factor say our stack is worth $150, doubling it may increase the value to "only" $285 for example, whereas in a cash game it would obviously be $300. Each chip gained > chip lost etc

4b/f any value hand (not necessarily AK specifically) does not equal definitely "turning our hand into a bluff". Major misconception. Consider rare case of standard fish who calls heaps of 3-bets with a super wide and weak range but never 4-bets without like QQ+ and maybe AK sometimes, so many hands we should 3-bet for value but fold to a 4-bet, it's not turning our hand into a bluff at all... Can apply similar ideas and thought processes against some regs in some spots..

And Zach 162s are tougher than smaller mtts (obv) but still super soft, and way less competitive in terms of reg skill compared to even small stakes cash, a huge % of the regs have no idea about postflop, deeper stacks etc etc.
i like this post
05-02-2013 , 12:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMGClayDol


4b/f any value hand (not necessarily AK specifically) does not equal definitely "turning our hand into a bluff". Major misconception. Consider rare case of standard fish who calls heaps of 3-bets with a super wide and weak range but never 4-bets without like QQ+ and maybe AK sometimes, so many hands we should 3-bet for value but fold to a 4-bet, it's not turning our hand into a bluff at all... Can apply similar ideas and thought processes against some regs in some spots..
agree with this post, if u 4 bet fold aq it's not like "oh sh.it u just turned yo hand into a bluff son". it's like in deep stack cash games when u 4 bet aq and some guy rips like 200 bbs on u. Obv you're not trying to call of 200 bbs w aq (although in some spots u should) but u have to balance your ranges and flatting can make playing the hand a lot harder, so why not 4 bet w hands that have more value when u r flatted.

as for this hand obv we're not 4 bet folding ak but i'm agreeing with the general point u were making.
05-02-2013 , 02:16 AM
That was a phenomenal analysis

Spoiler:
05-02-2013 , 04:25 AM
I could be wrong on this, so please let me know if you guys agree or not...

Nobody is really talking about OP's bet sizing on his 4-bet. Nobody is ever folding a raise from 240 to 480 in position, so the 4-bet doesn't narrow the BTN's range at all. He's almost 4-betting with the hope that he'll get 5-bet so that he can fold. Who is ever folding to that 4-bet? So his range remains the same whether you call the 3-bet or make the 4-bet.

It seems much better to 4-bet to ~700. Much better chance you get a fold. If you C-bet after a 4-bet to 480 and get flatted, what do you on the turn if you don't hit TPTK? You have to shove (which you don't feel good about with 1 card to come) or you have to check and basically give up the pot if your opponent shoves.

If you make it ~700, it's easier to put your opponent on a range and you can C-bet shove against most flops -- whether you hit TPTK or it's a relatively safe flop like J72 or 48T or something like that.

If your opponent folds to the C-bet, you make more than if you get a fold against your C-bet after making it 480. If your shove gets called, you'll usually still have outs if you're behind with 2 cards to come. But your EV should still be higher with a larger 4-bet than it would be against a smaller 4-bet or against a 4-bet shove since you have all of those times that your opponent folds the flop and it's easier to narrow their range with the larger 4-bet.

Does this make sense? Do you guys agree with this or am I an idiot?
05-02-2013 , 09:49 AM
Early in a tourney with an unknown V I like to flat the 3bet here. And prolly check call most flops folding the turn if you don't improve no need to go bust in a speculative spot early
05-02-2013 , 10:23 AM
If you are going to 4bet you need to make it larger than 480, if villain is never 3bet bluffing in this spot I would call the 3bet. If he has a 3bet bluffing (which I don't see why he can't be, he's 3betting a btn vs a co open) 4b/call is clearly the best play.

All munk trolling aside, I think you played the hand fine, expect I would make the 4bet bigger pf.
05-02-2013 , 11:46 AM
Yeah, calling the 3bet is fine as well. Yeah you're OOP but at least you keep the pot smaller early on and don't get your self in trouble if you 4bet and then have to fold. If you just call the 3bet and miss the flop you can fold and it won't hurt too much. If you hit the flop, you can check-raise shove for extra value and then it's the same as 4betting really, except better because there's less risk since you're committing less chips pre-flop.
05-02-2013 , 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagles2.0
All munk trolling aside, I think you played the hand fine, expect I would make the 4bet bigger pf.
I feel like I'm defending munk, which he doesn't actually need, but munk was mostly referring to OPs thought process, this is what he stated his thought process was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tourbound68
I have 0 reads on Villain. But feel like his range is pretty narrow in this spot.. Please feel free to elaborate on you thoughts.. But in general this is how I see this and similar spots.

A: Fold to his three bet
B: 4 Bet and fold to 5 Bet
C: Flat his 3 bet (Which I personally would never do, but it is an option.. I guess)
Just because OP got the hand right this time doesn't mean that he doesn't have a huge leak in these types of situations with the thought process he was implementing, and munk was commenting on this. Process-oriented thinking instead of results-oriented thinking ftw.
05-03-2013 , 12:35 AM
I would like to thank everyone's input in this thread... It really helped my "fundamentals"... So much so I just got 3rd in "The Big $55".... With a lil more work and reading what you guys post.. I might be able to get a Big $109 FT soon...!! Much appreciated!
05-03-2013 , 01:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zachvac
hmm ok makes sense I guess thanks, I just assumed online $162's would be on the tougher side and most regs in those games would be decent/aggro even early on. I've definitely noticed that mtt pros tend to play insanely nitty early on but I mostly only play like majors and lolivemtts. Just always assumed it was icm/wanting to pick better spots vs. fish rather than reg battling when blinds were lower.
thank you for posting then after admitting you have 0 clue whats going on

Quote:
Originally Posted by bparis
And nobody is ever peeling AJ/AQ/KQ vs a four bet this early here in an MTT
looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neepohrl
How does everyone feel about opening to 75 at 15/30?
0 people who do this have a soul, a special place in hell is reserved for these ppl


And while I agree that making this thread is extremely ridiculous, its ALMOST as ridiculous to completely rule out anything but 4b call or flat, i know ppl better than anyone in this thread at online mtts that might just fold to this or might 4b fold. PERSONALLY i say cib'll shepard that bitch and go from there but watevs, i will say that if you're making this thread theres probably 15+ hands in this tournament that are magnitudes more complex than this one that you didnt post, theres very few hands where you have the top of your range that you're going to add alot of ev to your decisions by discussing.

Last edited by kleath; 05-03-2013 at 02:11 AM.
05-03-2013 , 02:19 AM
kleath for mod already ffs
05-03-2013 , 02:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bparis
..you chase away any hands you could extract value from post while over-repping your hand and still enabling him to stack you by simply flatting the top of his range and getting you in position postflop, which is exactly what happened
bingo bango bongo
05-03-2013 , 02:38 AM
**** wish i could go back and add more o's to that lol, mods? lil help plz?

Last edited by kleath; 05-03-2013 at 02:38 AM. Reason: 70 more o's aka half a years supply gogogoogo
05-03-2013 , 02:45 AM
05-03-2013 , 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kleath
thank you for posting then after admitting you have 0 clue whats going on
Not a problem. I promise you despite me not knowing how the average villain in this situation plays that my overall gameplan is still more profitable against the average villain than pretty much anyone else in this thread in this spot even if it means he's only 3-betting me 2% and only stacking KK+ but I still get AK in here. You seem like a clever fellow so hopefully I don't need to expand on that.

oh and thank you for posting while adding 0 logic to the thread.
05-03-2013 , 12:05 PM
I will consent to and likely deserve being trolled by kleath but absolutely will not consent to being trolled by plo ufo, especially when he refuses to use actual words

Perhaps I should re-phrase, it seems terrible for him to be peeling AJ AQ KQ for 1/6 stack this early, I suppose that doesn't really affect whether he is or not

Last edited by bparis; 05-03-2013 at 12:21 PM.

      
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