Big $162 3-bet spot early... - Page 3 - High Stakes MTT Strategy

everyone has different brm strategies, to generalize that anyone selling for the big 162 isn't +ev in it or a good investment isn't fair. not commenting on OP specifically.

i know you know this and were just generalizing. idk why i posted.

I said odds are they aren't.

I didn't generalize. I said the majority of them are.

In general a good rule of thumb for investing is, 'why do they need to be bought in?' If they are good at poker, then why don't they have money from poker to buy in? If the answer is something reasonable.....then continue.

04-30-2013 , 11:15 AM

#52

zachvac

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Squee451

you should be aware that many players who do 3bet early are capable of shoving allin with 100bb with hands as weak as JJ and AKo+

Oh man forgot how wild mtt pros were, you mean they stick 100bb stacks in the middle in button vs. CO with hands AS WEAK AS JJ AND AK???

I mean I guess icm and stuff? But seriously how do so many people say 4betting folds everything we beat out? Hopefully you guys are 4betting like 90% to take advantage of all the free chips. I mean flatting can't be too awful because it under-reps our hand a ****ton and stuff but I have to believe in a vacuum 4b/get it in has to be higher ev than anything here and it's not even mentioned as an option in the OP???

04-30-2013 , 11:25 AM

#53

bparis

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Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 3,059

people don't 3 bet that wide pre-ante zach, not cause of icm, just because people in MTTs are generally pretty bad at playing optimally 100bb deep pre-ante

04-30-2013 , 11:28 AM

#54

bbbbb33

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Quote:

Originally Posted by zachvac

explain icm's role pls.

04-30-2013 , 11:31 AM

#55

zachvac

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bbbbb33

explain icm's role pls.

I'm a cash pro (although reading this forum salivating at how soft wsop mtts gonna be) so I'm not super good at icm but my understanding is basically since payout is not winner take all each chip is worth less than the last thus flipping has negative ev so if two options are close we should definitely take the lower variance one. Someone who actually plays mtts correct me if I'm wrong?

04-30-2013 , 11:34 AM

#56

zachvac

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bparis

people don't 3 bet that wide pre-ante zach, not cause of icm, just because people in MTTs are generally pretty bad at playing optimally 100bb deep pre-ante

hmm ok makes sense I guess thanks, I just assumed online $162's would be on the tougher side and most regs in those games would be decent/aggro even early on. I've definitely noticed that mtt pros tend to play insanely nitty early on but I mostly only play like majors and lolivemtts. Just always assumed it was icm/wanting to pick better spots vs. fish rather than reg battling when blinds were lower.

04-30-2013 , 11:35 AM

#57

bparis

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ICM is basically irrelevant this early, there's definitely an "edge over the field" argument to be made to avoid the most extremely marginal of +CEV spots but for the most part you just go on pure CEV until you get a lot closer to bubble

and nah, everyone in MTTs sucks no matter how high the buyins go for the most part (at least given a certain minimum field size)

04-30-2013 , 11:38 AM

#58

aaronbeen

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 504

Munk, Bparis, Squee I think you guys are actually understating how clueless OP is and what a good spot this is. Everyone loves to 3bet the button yo! I would expect an unknown btn vs co 3bet to be heavily weighted towards bluffs (5% value vs 9-12+% bluff). Even if he never 5bet bluffs you're flipping and the 4bet will take it down so often it might be profitable with our entire range.

04-30-2013 , 11:43 AM

#59

zachvac

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Also people 3b AJ/AQ/KQ in this spot a lot and probably are flatting the 4b (or maybe 5b bluffing who knows). All in all it's a spot where I feel like against anyone but the nittiest of nits you should be super happy about seeing a 3b not thinking that your options are fold or 4b/fold lol.

04-30-2013 , 11:43 AM

#60

bparis

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Aaron, post-ante I would absolutely agree (even with same stack depths) but I feel like the vast majority of big 162 randos just don't 3-bet bluff much pre-ante, even from these positions

And nobody is ever peeling AJ/AQ/KQ vs a four bet this early here in an MTT, you're better off getting value by flatting in that case (and not necessarily giving up immediately on textures that don't involve a pair)

Definitely agree that your options should never include fold or 4b/fold, tho

04-30-2013 , 11:49 AM

#61

aaronbeen

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 504

I stack AQ here all the time games have gotten a lot more aggressive in the last year.

04-30-2013 , 11:50 AM

#62

justin ouimette

newbie

Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 28

You guys are both super deep, flatting his 3b here cant be bad can it? You under rep your hand when you do so, your opponents going to have a very hard time putting you on such strong holdings.

04-30-2013 , 11:53 AM

#63

Neepohrl

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Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 1,144

How does everyone feel about opening to 75 at 15/30?

04-30-2013 , 11:55 AM

#64

zachvac

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CO it's probably fine. If he's also opening that size earlier though, especially since he doesn't seem to be all that great 100bb deep, it's probably a leak.

04-30-2013 , 11:56 AM

#65

bparis

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stacking AQ here this early seems terrible, unless you're just trying really hard to prove to T 97 that you're not a nit

04-30-2013 , 12:14 PM

#66

Kramerica

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Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3,528

grow up stealthmunk

flatting is my usual play here because of the reasons wildman stated. Although if we are going to have a 4 bet fold range we should probably be 4 bet getting in ak from time to time here to stay balanced.

04-30-2013 , 12:16 PM

#67

bparis

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doesn't it depend at least somewhat on whether the villain's name is in all caps and how oi him you are?

04-30-2013 , 12:17 PM

#68

Kramerica

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Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3,528

HAHAHA... honestly i think 4 betting might be better upon further review, we're going to get owned a lot when we flat. With that said, tournament life yo. lol @ folding being an option tho.

04-30-2013 , 12:34 PM

#69

aaronbeen

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 504

I meant that I open AK in the cutoff and get it in vs button's AQ. I realized what I posted could be interpreted in a lot of ways.

04-30-2013 , 12:34 PM

#70

Tourbound68

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A lot of great discussion... I really appreciate all of the feedback.. It seems like the online game has drastically changed.... I obviously have to keep getting better and adjusting my game..

04-30-2013 , 12:42 PM

#71

bparis

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that makes a lot more sense aaron, idk why I interpreted it the other way after re-reading the post

04-30-2013 , 12:55 PM

#72

jiggybluff

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damn internet kids and their AK

04-30-2013 , 01:19 PM

#73

Tourbound68

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Vs ^ guy i am never folding :-)

04-30-2013 , 01:40 PM

#74

Zima421

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BackRaiseNYC

Tourbound I have a question. What ROI is it completely even for investor and seller (IE they get same amount of expectation ignore variance) at 1.175? What ROI do you think you have in big 162?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tocalasam

(x) 1.175 MU

( ) 75% ROI

(x) 17.5% ROI

yyyyyyyyyyes

Long live Munk!

04-30-2013 , 02:27 PM

#75

JEB262

banned

Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 563

What you have to understand when buying Sunday packages is that each player is part of a portfolio, and it's not a bad idea to have high risk, low ev players in your portfolio. I've always considered AAupmyslev to be a slightly better than average player who takes a lot of silly risks, which is why he's an overall +ev investment if you know what you are doing and have low risk players as part of your assets

That being said, I stopped buying him a long time ago when he made a ridiculous error near the final table of a major.

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