Getty- I cbet flop with what I feel is additional equity vs his range... when he flats again, I am pretty much done unless J or h comes.. with 3h and pot sized bet left.....

as harsh as it may seem, this post is 100% dead-on

glad to have you back stealth even if I have to suffer your wrath myself occasionally

Sad to see this.. You seemed like a nice guy in the pool of Palms Place last year during day 4 or so of Main Event.. :-)

And as far as your agreeing to his post.. I think it is laughable for some people to equate overall EV, with a general question of 1 isolated hand.. And to say that because I don't consider calling OOP with AK the reason I am not overall profitable in a 1k or 1.5k is hilarious..

People have different play styles and approaches to the game.. No one thought process is end all be all.

I love hearing different ones, and incorporating what I think is best for my game.

flatting 3 bets oop with a disguised range >>>> 4 bet folding AK co vs button

but i guess u have to be comfortable playing pots oop and hand reading first.

I am probably about to get yelled at but in a live tourney, I don't even hate 4b/fold if the structure is super good. I probably wouldn't do it, but I don't think it's as bad as it is online. I think this is a clear example of a live player trying to make the transition to online.

I don't feel super comfortable in a live setting, and I know many players I think are worse than me online, I would rate as good as me or better expected value in a live tournament, due to a lack of experience on my part. I am sure the OP can read hands and players in a live setting much better than I can, but it appears he does not play much online recently and actually brought up a spot which is worth talking about.

This is level 1 and he 3 bet pretty huge as "nonsimplesimon" said above...

As I said in the OP I felt like his range was pretty narrow... I personally think someones 5 bet shoving range at 15-30 is KK+ hence me feeling 4-bet folding is fine... Obv if this is someone I knew, and could throw QQ or JJ into that range I am never folding..

Thanks Squee- I do play live... and haven't played online in 2 years..

I really appreciate all the feedback.. Even Munk.. ;-)

just 4bet shove pre, AK is a great hand, ur opp might not wanna put his stack on a flip this early in a tournament. With no reads and pretty much no action plan postflop (unless u flop TPTK) and no position id just shove pre...

why are u playing a $162 buy in with your sizing and insufficient knowledge of playing AK against a 3bet.... also want to note that this is early stages as well....

as stated by someone else, unreg pre and play lower stakes.

he could have won a satellite

SSKS- Saying I don't know how to play AK vs a 3-bet isn't accurate... I think the general assumption by most people in the thread is that my logic was flawed... And that logic is flawed all because they feel that QQ is in Villains range if he chose to (which he didn't) 5 bet shove pre and I happened to fold my AK here getting the right price on calling.

I pretty much don't agree with that thought process because I feel his range is totally skewed towards KK and AA. (if he 5 bet shoves at 15-30) Squee makes a good point that maybe my logic is incorrect in todays online play...

Then people have gone on a wild assumption that I can't (or don't feel comfortable) playing post. Because I chose not to play AK OOP... I guess we could flat, hope to hit TPTK or some other random value scenario and hope to extract max value from an unknown player..(who is most likely folding Axx,Kxx etc.) But most likely what would happen is we c/f flop because we miss and the have P.

Re post I think its quite hopeful that we can get someone to fold a hand that CC a 4b pf and calls that wet board otf. Your shove to me doesn't look like value so I would be tempted to call with say black jacks or similar.

ah, so that's who you are

stealth obviously comes off as excessively harsh in all of his posts, and I don't doubt you can still be +EV in some WSOP events without knowing the answer to this particular spot, but this is a very basic theory / fundamentals question, and you definitely ranked the options in the wrong order as he stated

4-bet fold when you have two blockers to the only two hands that crush you, especially from these positions, is by far the worst option. Your assumption that he is only 5-bet shoving AA/KK I assume is predicated upon the live metagame, and online people are more positionally aware and more willing to 5-bet shove here with JJ, QQ, and AK. therefore we ideally put the hand into our flatting range and try to catch barrels / make a better top pair than him if he's 3-betting lower Ax's or KQ KJ type hands (which he isn't necessarily doing often, but surely a non0% from these positions), as you have correctly identified 4b/get it in to be a bit on the thin side. The other flaw in your thinking is assuming he is ever peeling your 4-bet with worse, which he certainly is not - you chase away any hands you could extract value from post while over-repping your hand and still enabling him to stack you by simply flatting the top of his range and getting you in position postflop, which is exactly what happened

It makes sense that you're primarily a live player based on this thread, as I said above I don't doubt you can still be profitable from soft factors such as live reads (you clearly made a good run at the main last year) but I can also see why stealth reacted the way he did due to his ongoing campaign to call out what he perceives as bad investments in the marketplace. To a bunch of online wizards like the denizens of HSMTT the lack of fundamentals shown in your OP is glaring

Squee has probably largely won the thread on actual strategy, although I have to disagree with him saying 4-bet/folding live here would be acceptable, I think flat is always going to be greatly superior

The flaws in OP's thought process are unrelated to the specific environment in which the hand was played. I understand Adam is trying to be nice and helpful, but I doubt that'll help OP to actually get better.

The hand was played bad all around, from the 4bet, to the size of it, finishing with bad post flop decisions and even worse reasons behind them.

Munk is harsh and rough like no one else, some of the stuff he says should be said through PM's before berating like that in public (and I'm not the nicest guy when I see bad stuff either), but nobody at least decent can deny that at the end of the day he is right. Just wish he'd chose smoother ways to explain himself, so it'd be easier to side with him without being labeled as part of the HSMTT SS troop.

Edit: Bparis beat me to it, as he used to do at the tables. #whenwillitend

I generally flat with AK pre here but will sometimes 4b/c or fold

agree that never flatting here is a leak because it seems like the most natural play to me

I actually greatly prefer your concise phrasing to my endless rambling if it makes you feel any better andres

There are a tonne of spots where 4b folding ak is fine, generally when we just get aa/kk in and need a bluffing range an we aren't closin te action. This spot is closer than suggested in the thread but it's still a r/c.

So I just found out he sold at 1.175 to this very tournament.

lol. The best online players in the world probably don't have over 75% ROI in this tournament.

I bet if we asked this clown what ROI he needed for the markup to be breakeven...just omg. words can't even describe.

Selling at 1.175 to this tourney and posting this hand....is just highway robbery.

The spot is close.

Its not the spot that isn't interesting. Its just his thought process and logic as described in OP is of that that if he was applying to be staked for 12$ 180 mans I'd immediately reject him. Instead he sold at 1.175 for this highstakes online mtt, and is also selling at markup for WSOPaments.

Its a disgrace.

Missed you Munk

Tourbound I have a question. What ROI is it completely even for investor and seller (IE they get same amount of expectation ignore variance) at 1.175? What ROI do you think you have in big 162?

(x) 1.175 MU

( ) 75% ROI

(x) 17.5% ROI

Here is part of the problem ;(

EDIT: I'll elaborate, if OP has 17.5% ROI in this tournament, nobody should ever ever buy him for 1.175MU, that is munk's point.

lololololololololloll

ty johnfr but its best that people are clueless...... So if he has a 17.5% ROI....the staker should have a breakeven investment so this idiot can get paid to play!

nEWS FLASH IF SOMEONE CANT AFFORD A 162$ BUYIN AND HAVE TO ASK STRANGERS TO BUY THEM INTO A 162$ TOURNAMENT, ODDS ARE THEY AREN'T GOOD AT POKER AND CANT BEAT HSMTT ONLINE.

everyone has different brm strategies, to generalize that anyone selling for the big 162 isn't +ev in it or a good investment isn't fair. not commenting on OP specifically.

i know you know this and were just generalizing. idk why i posted.