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Awkward/Absurd WSOP ME Spot OOP. Awkward/Absurd WSOP ME Spot OOP.

07-08-2012 , 10:18 PM
There is some very relevant history to this hand.

I am two to the left of villain. He's a very large Detroit Tigers douchey looking scumbag with what appears to be fake jewelery and a scumbag friend of his sweating him. From the second he sat down at the table, I was disgusted to share the earth with him and was looking forward to taking his chips. He is somewhat chatty saying very idiotic stuff, berating other players, commenting on raise sizes, while obviously having no clue whatsoever. For example CO 5xd (standard for my table) button flats 9Ts, he flats bb...778r checked around turn 9 and Tigers scumbag fires 3k at 4500....they check check 5 river button has 9Ts and scumbag has pocket 4s and he started questioning the dudes calling of 1500 with T9s saying its hard to give him credit for that. He also seems to overvalue "big aces" and keeps talking about having a "big ace" and missing flops with them. He was quite the stabber at pots and aggressively mashed a lot of buttons while having no clue what he was doing, like everyone but 2 others at my table. (4 people have busted....in all seriousness if I ever have money I wouldn't sell at 3.5:1 markup for ME this is a joke)

In level 1 I've 3bet him two or three times and he check folded the flop. (Missed pairmines) He also Raised CO, I call sb. Check Check AJ3r, turn 7 i check call 2/3 pot, river 9 ck ck I announce "7" he shows 69o (wp bud)

At 150-300 no ante he makes it 800 in the hijack I make it 2100 on the button with 89ss. He calls. Flop comes KsJsJx he check calls 1500. Turn Ace, he check calls 4000 relatively quickly. River is a brick he checks I give up, he shows K2o. I tell him he played the hand to the perfection and called him an idiot many times. He called me an internet player and said "don't act like I don't know what your doing coming in every pot I've raised." I assure him that he has no clue what is going on and he is just an idiot getting very lucky. He puts on his beats though because he can't take the heat.

First hand from dinner break I start hand with 13k. UTG 1 makes it 700, K2o detroit tigers scumbag flats, I make it 2200, utg1 agonizing folds...tigers calls and I say nice call, playing well, and ask him if he has K2o? He check folds 667r. I tap the table and say well played nice hand as I scoop the pot. Probably call him an idiot a couple more times and thank him for not stopping donating to me.

Then this hand happens, he raises to 800 at 150-300 ante from MP. I flat the CO or HIJ I forget. As soon as I flat he says "everytime." I immediately snap back with "I got to attack the idiots, if you are trying to give it away what am I supposed to do, fold?" Another person comes along to the Q63ss flop. He bets 2k I make it 5100 with 11-12k behind and he tanks for a minute. I snap call the clock on him. He folds.

Just a couple hands later a 90/10 zynga poker fish limps in who has 5x/7xd/4x potted with air/whole arsenal... and another guy limps, and K2o genius makes it 1400 on the button. I have 21k ish to start the hand. I have AKo in the BB. I opt to make it 5500. Thoughts on sizing here? Its really awkward playing OOP in the softest tourney of the year vs someone trying to give there chips to you but also incapable of 4betting light as shown in previous hands. Anyways, as he tanks I say again "got to attack the idiots." He says something about me goading him, and then calls. (lol) Q9Tr. Whats our play/plan for hand now on various runouts?

Bonus question: Should I have 3barreled the JJKA board vs this monkey? I feel like if I 3barrel I have to overbet shove and wasn't quite ready to hit the showers in case he actually had a jack. I had 30k at that hand to start I believe.
07-08-2012 , 10:26 PM
I'd love to see people tell me berating/demeaning/talking **** to players isn't +EV. You just have to pick the stereotypical types of players to do it too so they take it personally and then spite donate to you like this guy.

For example, the zynga huge fish moron that busted me 7xing/calling a 27x oop with KQo then donk shoving an AQ2r flop n rivering a Q vs my AK....I didn't berate him at all. I was talking him up the entire time...telling him he's a beast...asking him to show bluffs. etc. He was just drinking having a sick time overbet bluffing and putting clueless idiots in the cage. He just laughed as he peeled my 8k reraise over his 7x open in ep with KQo and then when flop came AQ2 i smiled and was like oh no man that flop hit you? Didn't even berate him after the hand! Fun guys like that guy you can't berate you gotta just let him have fun. Douchebag scumbag lowlives with fake jewelery from Detroit who think they are hot **** at poker....those are 100% of the people you have to condescend and berate and talk **** to nonstop.

#livepro
07-08-2012 , 11:22 PM
You sort of set yourself up for this by sizing the 4-bet so you would have 1.5x pot left with AK. You miss the flop 2/3 of the time. So maybe make an Internet-style 4-bet or flat or even shove.

Kind of weird because you have about 33% equity versus his range OTF. I would probably get the money in, but there may be a better way to play it.

Really hope the Detroit guy busted you after you berated him so much.
07-08-2012 , 11:26 PM
um...seems like your just as much of a douche as the fellow your describing
07-08-2012 , 11:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by betgo
Really hope the Detroit guy busted you after you berated him so much.
oh and this too...which im pretty sure is the case neway
07-09-2012 , 12:31 AM
BETGOOOOOOO
07-09-2012 , 12:37 AM
meh, I agree with Munk's explanation of who to berate. It's not my style but I certainly understand the resentment towards this type of villain and we need someone to put them in their place(munk gets my full support for this job).

As far the hand in question, I'd make it 3800. I don't want to inflate the pot too much since on certain boards you miss you're going to have to bet/fold or c/f. I don't see him making moves postflop vs you and he can't really with these stacksizes. While you have a gutshot with 2 overs, this smashes his flatting range. Once someone shows K2o and get berated, unless they're supremely confident in their strategy, they are going to tighten up so it's not like he's isolating/calling your 3 bet super wide. You can't bet /call on this board and there's hardly any hands he flats pre that don't connect on this board.

For the 89s hand, I would check back turn since he's calling flop with AQ/A10/Q10 and might call K10/KQ because of guthsot/he doesn't believe you. I don't think he has a J since he's either going to raise flop or attempt to look really weak and take his time calling on the turn to induce bluffs. A quick call like that is usually designed to slow you down so with that info, I think you have fire the last barrel(easier said obv once I know the results).
07-09-2012 , 01:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebet33
um...seems like your just as much of a douche as the fellow your describing
Lmao...couldn't agree more Osw.

[x] OP getting mad bc other people are bad but he's also bad and will never admit he's bad.

89s hand is lol.
07-09-2012 , 01:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueNewfie87
Lmao...couldn't agree more Osw.

[x] OP getting mad bc other people are bad but he's also bad and will never admit he's bad.

89s hand is lol.
this post is lol
07-09-2012 , 02:05 AM
nice OP. very thorough as far as reads/history/image, i mean i can literally see this guy and his friend behind him in my imagination... ilu stealth, #livepro

Last edited by skater3598; 07-09-2012 at 02:14 AM.
07-09-2012 , 03:49 AM
thousands of poker players can win without verbally abusing people, grow up man.
07-09-2012 , 04:44 AM
Make it less with AK... AK is awesome because it = blockers + tptk potential. Against fish it's less awesome, because it's really not that great vs. somebody's 3-bet calling range if they don't fold very much. You have antagonized fish to such an extent that he's prob getting it in pretty wide vs. you.

AK is still a great spot to iso vs. him and look to stack his KJ or whatever. But if he makes it 1400, make it like 2950 or whatever... I mean, he's not folding pre, and much of the time, he's not folding flop either, so just iso him in position and keep the lead. You're in position, you want to get it in if you hit and control pot if you don't. Making it 5500 sabotages this. Now you really have to decide to go all the way or not on flop, and considering how much you've pissed this guy off it's hard to fold to him if he does something spazzy.

It's not like this guy is ever folding tpgk or probably even middle pair to you, from what you've described... so iso but keep it smaller pre in position, and then play exploititavely post.
07-09-2012 , 05:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gostatego
thousands of poker players can win without verbally abusing people, grow up man.
I could win without the verbal abuse, but I wouldn't win as much. If I wasn't constantly needling/berating this guy, he would not have gone out of his way to donate to me in many many spots. I don't play poker to make friends. I play poker for the money. And it certainlly showed today and many other times this series the power of talking.

People with position on me I generally will always be showing good hands, and talking nice/being nice to. You want those people to think you are straight up and be "buddy buddy" with you. However, because I had position on this already spewy idiot, I had to demean him and goad him into constantly spewing because he hated my guts. And it obviously worked on many occasions.

Its foolish to think that table talk/"friendliness" isn't a huge part of live poker especially in the main event where you are at same table all day. Its even more foolish to think that a condescending berating attitude isn't the optimal conditions vs certain people. I am almost always in good fun/choose the right battles/attacks...look in the chatter thread.

Also, this guy was a mild berater himself. Trust me, he deserved it. You online kids with zero social skills can throw on your beats and play ABC poker you'll never have the extra edge needed to crush live .

Anyways, I really only made this thread to brag/show/discuss how needling/berating people can be so valuable.

Also, re: sizing. The guy is never 4betting light, only flatting, and flatting ridiculously wide probably never folding AT-AQ/random suited aces/broadways/pairs. 3800 never crossed my mind, it was 5500-7200 if I made it 7200 I could probably open rip this flop, but I also don't want super high variance spots....I think sizing is very interesting here...as well as postflop.

Telling me to grow up is lol though. You grow up and open your eyes up to the many ways to dominate a live poker table!

Also why are people talking about the fish's 3bet calling range? The fish just isolated on the button. His range is fairly wide, he was an aggro douchebag fish protecting his button. I mean, I got him to peel 5500 after showing weakness by berating him, so obviously my sizing is good. I want him to call 5500 at that stack depth. I probably don't want him to call 3500. He is never 4betting i mean the dude flats K2o he's a clueless monkey.
07-09-2012 , 05:10 AM
all edge garnering aside, needling this guy is the optimal play
07-09-2012 , 05:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skater3598
all edge garnering aside, needling this guy is the optimal play
What makes you say that i mean it would make him more prone to fishing agianst op and potentially getting it in on a draw and hitting..

Cant beat luck tho OP gg #liveprosdontberatepeople
07-09-2012 , 05:59 AM
I would have flatted the AK from the bb. Your implied odds are increased greatly if you hit the flop. The raise looks like a JJ,KK hand. Now you are locked into a cbet on any board regardless.

I realize this is the 2012 main event, but there are still players whose holy grail is 9 10 J Q drawing hands and these guys kinda fit that profile, so what to do with this flop...?

Insta-shove or insta-check, leaning towards the check and hoping to improve somehow. I think any drawing hand may go along for another card. Any made hand wont. I think any sized bets is just running the wrong way to the goal line.

Enjoyed the running commentary for sure.
07-09-2012 , 06:05 AM
Id prob go either bigger or smaller on the 3bet with these stack sizes
07-09-2012 , 06:07 AM
wug sizing charder? leave PSB on flop so 6900?

amazing the advice ITT, flat pre, locked into cbet on any board regardless? wtf? 9TQr is one of worst boards possible for me. Just because you are unlucky and get a board that smacks the idiots range doesn't mean your locked into betting.
07-09-2012 , 06:10 AM
you come across so badly in op.

just find top pair and value bet imo. doubling the kkja seems really bad
07-09-2012 , 06:18 AM
Lol, the ace turn is the best card in the deck to barrel, at the time I didn't know the guy was a huge punter incapable of folding anything. You guys really all suck at poker. You can check back flop if you want some %. The 3rd barrel is debatable. But not betting when the ace turn comes off is just lololol. I didn't know at the time the guy was a straight up huge moron trying to give all his chips to me. Also it builds pot so if I hit my flush on the river get paid off bigger.
07-09-2012 , 07:39 AM
In live poker, talking is a viable tool in order to maximize your winrate. However, you can achieve what you want to achieve without actually being disrespectful to people, and therefor in a classier manner.
07-09-2012 , 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Haris
Lol, the ace turn is the best card in the deck to barrel, at the time I didn't know the guy was a huge punter incapable of folding anything. You guys really all suck at poker. You can check back flop if you want some %. The 3rd barrel is debatable. But not betting when the ace turn comes off is just lololol. I didn't know at the time the guy was a straight up huge moron trying to give all his chips to me. Also it builds pot so if I hit my flush on the river get paid off bigger.

post is basically bull **** but cba to help/explain thought processes to somebody who comes across as a know it all/douche.

gl on day 2
07-09-2012 , 08:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Haris
amazing the advice ITT, flat pre, locked into cbet on any board regardless? wtf?
So you are berating us too?
07-09-2012 , 09:34 AM
how can u not berate betgo

i like how everyone is super mad that one of the tournament players in the world is giving much more free content than everybody else here

as to the hand: i dont hate flatting pre as the stacksizes are so awkard
you sayed he is stabby so u can easily checkraise kxx/axx boards and still get a lot of money in and if u 3bet small and dont hit u have to check/fold so many boards because he doesnt fold
as to 3betting big, i thnik u either have to make it big enough so u can jam like any flop or dont do it all because u set yourself up for awekardness on sooooo many boards
07-09-2012 , 10:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Haris
I'd love to see people tell me berating/demeaning/talking **** to players isn't +EV. You just have to pick the stereotypical types of players to do it too so they take it personally and then spite donate to you like this guy.
First off, this technique is not for everyone. You have to be a natural born a-hole to pull this off, and make it convincing. It's just too difficult to fake it. Civilized people who make it a practice to treat others and the game with respect will never get away with it.

Second, berating opponents in not and has never been part of live poker, despite what people new to the genre might think. Live poker is not anonymous... cyber-bullies may need to back it up when they try it in real life..

On top of that, it is most definitely against the rules..

45. Rio prohibits the use of obscene or foul language in any public area of the casino at any time. Any Participant who uses such language or makes a foul, profane, obscene or vulgar statement, or speaks abusively or in an intimidating manner to another Participant, a dealer or a Tournament staff member, will be penalized. These penalties will be levied based on Rules 39, 102 and 103.
46. Any Participant who taunts another Participant through theatrics or gestures or engages in any form of inappropriate behavior intended to disrupt other players in the tournament will be subject to penalty in accordance with Rules 39, 102, and 103.
47. Participant or staff abuse will not be tolerated. A Participant will incur a penalty up to and including disqualification...

      
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