Ty amigo. I have held it back but I thought you were a bit young to be dabbing on T and peptides, even if it was doctor approved (they are mostly donks when it comes to this stuff). And I started ramming the bus uncontrollably, my apologies again.

I don't apologize to Evo though. The kid is batshiet crazy and I hope it all turns well.

Can someone point me in the direction of the aforementioned DK Metcalf discussion? I feel like I've missed out.

RealB. Case closed. Also, literally not a single natty has been "allowed" to just do the conventional bodybuilidng bro **** that works. They do ridiculous bastardized powerlifting programs and then you point at them as examples for natty muscular potential WHEN THEY ARE NOT TRAINING TO MAXIMIZE HYPERTROPHY IN THE FIRST PLACE. So how are you going to tell me about natty muscular potential citing guys who are not even training expressly for the purpose of gaining muscle?


So basically you can't get beyond loco 5'10 155lbs lean unless you are black, but then you can massively exceed that. lol.

405x1 lbbs =/=315x10 hbbs. And you will very quickly realize that in bbing, nobody asks you to bench press on the stage the numbers in isolation are basically irrelevant. And even if they were, your assertion that just gaining 23lbs of fat would get him to those numbers is completely ******ed.

I don't want you to apologize; I want you to stop peddling your ******ed bullshit and prescribing powerlifting programs to people who literally don't know what an opener is, have 0 interest in doing a powerlifitng meet, and expressly want bigger muscles. They should train accordingly using actual bodybuilding methods. Your argument boils down to this "Well, nobody on this forum has gotten past x amount of muscle using powerlifting and strength programs with limited hypertrophy accessories, so clearly they wont do so using bodybuilding programs. Therefore you, too, should use a powerlifting program because training for muscle gains beyond a certain level is useless based on my observation of people who were not actually training for muscle gains".

The difference in training for strength vs hypertrophy in terms of results and in terms of the training itself is just massive whether you are natty or enhanced. Otherwise why would Kevin Oak not have massive Phil Heath quads? Why do natty IPF powerlifters look nowhere near as good as the best natural bodybuilders? I think even Barbell Medicine Docs says "don't bother powerbuilding, the two are just so radically different you're better off picking a direction"

You are a donk EVO. My boy N1 does hhbs, he cut the depth on the 350 but at 23 pounds lighter he hit 350 and deadlifted 425.

That's basically your numbers. And now you can teach him? And even my 280 bench at 169 is equivalent to your weak natty lifts. And now you are going to teach us?

Please boy, it's all juice. RealB looked like the marshmallow man before he got all T'd up. Sure he had a ridiculous bench but not better than my boy SAW who hit 380 at 205 bw. So you saying SAW would be able to bodybuild if he did more 10 reppers. No man, the difference is marginal.

This Eric Helms with 3 years of Natty lifting vs 15 years. LOL. He looks the facking same!!! I rest my case. The realities of Natty training are beautiful when you see them.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B1zKseCg...d=nba9k6c13w5h

Are you seriously arguing that hypertrophy is directly 1:1 correlated with strength and that training style does not have any effect on whether you build more muscle or more strength?

I find it kinda weird when you mock my lifts since you literally cowered from any possible challenge I offered you. I guess you did come up with a rebuttal that was a cardiotard test which I declined cause LOL jogging.

In reality, most of us have kinda shitty limits (half of us are below average), but it doesn't really do anything to focus on this. N1 is going to have a shitty life because he's a legit moron who can't read good and is just well... a moron. Should he pack it in and just get a waifu living on welfare? (Kinda awkward now that I wrote that and he basically is doing that, except doing gambling gigs to buy overpriced weird shoes.) Maybe he makes it to be in the bottom 30% of society but that is the best N1 he can be, why stop him? Maybe he gets to 40%? Why is putting this weirdo limiting belief on what he can achieve in life "bad" but apparently in lifting it is "good"? He just recently got on a real program and is hitting PRs every cycle despite still being a total moran who can't do any basic thinking for himself.

k.

That appears to be his argument. And often with 1rms too. His argument further seems to be that one's natty lifts dictate credibility over the validity of hypertrophy training to gain muscle over strength training?




Granted, I personally found training for Olympic lifting strength far more fun and rewarding and would instantly return to this and drop bbing immediately if I were able to. Hell, even starting strengthening was more fun than most bbing training.

Yeah, that was rhetorical. His argument is obviously full on ******.

I find Olytarding enjoyable since trying to lift PRs is pretty gratifying, but for old natty office workers is probably not gonna result in being super healthy. So here we are. I lift once a week half my PRs (except bench cause why would I care about adding weight to a prehab movement?) and you just want skin splitting pumps or whatever BBing training shoots for. Mind/muscle connection or something. I don't really enjoy BBing, but I guess I'd consider it if I couldn't cardiotard one day? I don't really know. I do find it amusing that the only things people harp on in my log is how I don't bench and my press is slightly below BW. Cause like... those are very important to olytards.

I suspect you guys mostly agree, and the disagreement is around the edges.

Take N1H as the example. He went from skinny fat to reasonable natty IEL ~170 pounds (say 15% BF) within a couple years with moderate lifting/dieting. I think we can agree he exhausted most of his genetic potential during this period. And if he had started with more genetic potential he would have ended up bigger/stronger at the same BF%, and if he had started with less he would have ended up with less.

I think we can all agree if he switched to some hypothetical optimal BB routine for hypertrophy he would have some marginal LBM gain over time. I think we would all agree no matter how optimal his routine or how long he ran it he will never reach 220 pounds at 15% BF.

So the question is how much extra potential does a 30+ year old male who has already used up most of their genetic potential still have left. I tend to side with Loco and think the lower end is more accurate, but it is hard because noone is really using actual quantitative arguments (although I am guessing you have had such quantitative arguments in the past and I missed them, probably because I was IP banned at the time).

Maybe EVO and Loco could quantify their arguments, and we could see how much disagreement there actually is, and maybe it isn't so much?

After my Eric Helms link, there is not much to say. After his noob gains, 12 years for facking 5 pounds of muscle. This guy is like one of foremost experts on hypertrophy. So is Brad Schoenfeld, studied this shiet their whole lives and then trained for decades. They look like facking Mr Rogers with a sweater on!!!

Nobody said there is not a difference in strength and hypertrophy. It's just that difference is peanuts. Thats my point.

I had this same exact rant with N1 in the car. It's like boy, you can go to Bodybuilding it's more fun but you ain't gonna notice anything, maybe peanuts after a decade.

I ran PHAT. I ran candito. My coach put me on bodybuilding. It's all the facking same. You run a cycle of 531 Bodybuilding compared to Project Momentum? There is no facking difference you idiots, can't believe thremp and Evo actually had that discussion in N1s thread.

Steroids that's what makes a facking difference. That science study man!!!! The juiced up group didn't even facking lift and gained 10 pounds of muscle in 8 weeks!!! Eric Helms just lifted for 12 consecutive years to pick up 5 pounds!!

You should now see the Realities of Natty Training. It's facking beautiful man, I am almost shedding a tear right now. I am all pumped up to go workout now, lost some gains this last year. But so easy to pick them back up and maintain.

Well, I would guess N1 has a little more “noob gains” before he hits the proverbial wall. So, if he ran optimal programming maybe he could gain 8 lbs of LBM in a decade? Is this a fair estimate. I am just tying to quantitate what we are talking about here.

Kelhus,

I appreciate your efforts to push the bounds of the English language and as a ivory tower progressive (in English) that is probably your right.

Think modern research is pretty well understood on muscle rate gains btw. And pretty sure everyone buys into it.

Not real sure what loco is saying. Bro's death hitting him and he's prob on the sauce.

Just stuff about natty training but I looked over the offending EVO posts on N1s thread and jdock had a perfect response. And guess what, yours was pretty good too. So I am sorry I brought up your numbers again, Bus was ramming uncontrollably.

So my only issue is with Evo's crazy rants. I have to speak out vs my polar opposite, we see the realities of Natty training under completely different lights. He implied my boy was going to get jacked on bodybuilding and that Project Momentum had weak results when in fact, N1 made gains on a deficit on one of the toughest lifting programs every seen by amateurs. The Holy Grail, get leaner and yet stronger.

Let's move on.

I really respect jdock's opinion on all this natty training crap. Yes we agree almost to the dot but the guy lived the realities natty training himself.

Here was a guy who benched 3 wheels. Squatted 4. Hunched back about 5 wheels on deadlift.

And then he tried higher bodybuilding volume after he snapped his shiet up. Shiet I remember seeing him bench 225 for multiple sets of 8 and 10. And then he was doing countless pullups. And then he cut weight. And he still looked like shiet.

The realities of Natty training are truly sobering but once you see them, you realize their beauty and move on with life. Under the correct light (literally), they motivate more than drive someone to drugs.

A Wiseman once said Time is a flat circle and this is important enough that I will sound like a broken record player for all life. Until we get the Chosen one to teach us, Evo is not that person.

Merry Christmas, S&F; may Santa Loco bless all of you with the true enlightenment of the beautiful realities of natty training.

Sobering but beautiful.
Merry Christmas.

[war on christmas] happy holidays [/war on christmas]

also merry Christmas H&F!

Can you squat 3x a week and run a couple times a week for 1/2 miles ?

My first couple weeks back to squatting and I was hitting the stairmaster getting hr up to 160/180 for 20 min directly after. I will probably continue, but Im considering running as an option on off days etc.

Soooo can i have tree trunks for legs and still run safely?

1 to 2 miles really shouldn't be a problem for 3x/wk squatting. If you're not conditioned enough to do it now and not have it affect your recovery, give it a few weeks and you should be fine.

I suppose if you're on some advanced program, you're doing very heavy weight, and you're struggling to add another 5lbs to your squat, then maybe running that little could affect your recovery and progress. But even then I am doubtful that it would make a difference.

This notion that aerobic training impacts anaerobic training in a negative way for recreational/healthy low volume exercise is batshiet crazy.

It reminds me of the running forums, where the donks won't lift weights because they think the added stress levels will affect their running. Sigh.

It actually might be the opposite, as long as volume is reasonable for both, it may impact the other in a positive way. What everybody is afraid is the study from back in the day that showed aerobic training negatively impacting muscle growth. But get this, it was 6 days of lifting and 5 days of running a week for 10 weeks. Lol.

Plenty of elite sprint athletes (in various flavors) are good enough at cardiotarding to enter and win recreational cardiotard events. (Prob since they put in 20-40hrs a week cardiotarding.)

I'm sure that under 60min a week will be the real death knell to getting strong.

You know nothing about this. Please keep your stupid opinions on elite sprint athletes (in various flavors) and cardiotarding in your own dumb thread.

Do we really need to hear anything about being strong from someone who's strength levels are noob phase? No, jerking off to strong people you've encountered before doesn't count.

Great, k thaaaaaanks.

TC bringing some of dat x-mas !

Hope you had a good one guys.

PS: no kindergarten for two weeks sucks

Maybe it's different for powerlifting or olytard, but absolutely true for bbing that some Liss or even fairly high intensity cardio is absolutely beneficial. I can't imagine it'd be bad for recreational lifters. Cardio+weight in conjunction better for body composition and general health and fitness than weights alone or cardio alone, revolutionary idea, I know...

Also if you're on gear and slamming back the red meat that 80 cumulative minutes of LISS per week might just save you from premature death!