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09-30-2014 , 07:13 AM
It's not that big of a deal in the beginning. For your first exercise it is more important to get the form right. SS reccomends doing squats first as this exercise uses the most muscles and Rip wants you to be the freshest for it. GSLP advocates doing press/bench first, then squat, then accessories as you won't be as exhausted after your first exercise.
I am currently on a 3-day cardio/2 day weighlifting split, which is basically your Monday and Wednesday workouts without the chins or abs workouts. That way bench is "fixed" to the squat day and presses to the deadlift day.
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09-30-2014 , 07:24 AM
Yeah I see how you can make sense of that either way. I'll probably start squat days with squats because my squat form is my biggest concern. I might not start DL days with the DLs.
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09-30-2014 , 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Nick Royale
Rip describes the lifts in his book? I've only skimmed the SS wiki but there seems to have been some info in there.

And yeah, I most certainly don't won't to injure myself so I'll be as diligent I can be. Any recommendation of books or online texts, videos etc would be appreciated, but I'll probably start up a new log for form videos and all that stuff as soon as I get rolling.

Any reason you prefer GSLP other than your positive experience? I don't particularly care for curls but of course they were one of my staple exercises when I had no idea what I was doing. I might miss them, who knows!
SS 2nd ed. is extremely detailed and it packs way more info than you'll find anywhere online, very good reference point to have when you need to check up on technique. Haven't read the newest 3rd version but I assume it's at least as good.

The programs are all very similar. GSLP is slightly more aesthetics orientated (the curls) and lenient for personal modification and the progression scheme makes more sense to me after resets (2*5, 1*5+ instead of 3*5, so after you reset you can probably do 7-10 reps on the last set - in SS you just stop after 5). But like I said, tiny differences and you'll do fine whichever program of the ones you've mentioned you choose.
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09-30-2014 , 08:33 AM
Oh, is the last set max reps in GSLP or am I getting that wrong?
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09-30-2014 , 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Omar Comin
Thank you! That looks simple enough. It does raise a couple of questions for me, though:

How do I find out my starting weights? Just go about it like with Starting Strength, only with 6 (8?) reps per set, continuously adding weight until bar speed slows or form gets worse?

As I understand it, you repeat the exercise until you would fail on the next rep. How do I (the absolute beginner that I am) notice that I would fail on the next rep?

How much weight should I add once I reach 25 total reps? Start with the smalles increments available and take it from there?

For warming up, simply do a warm-up routine for every exercise, similar to Starting Strenght (i.e. start with a full set with an empty bar, progressively add weight and take away reps, until I only do like 1-2 reps on the ultimate warmup rep?)

Is it a good/bad idea to warm up on a cardio machine for a shortish time?

It seems that for the Bench Press (and possibly other exercises?) it is recommended to not lift alone, but to have a "spotter", for safety reasons? I will most likely go alone, is that a problem, or likely to become one later on?
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09-30-2014 , 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Royale
Oh, is the last set max reps in GSLP or am I getting that wrong?
Correct
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09-30-2014 , 11:02 AM
I think I like that.

First gym workout postponed to tomorrow because excuses.
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09-30-2014 , 11:25 AM
Slight correction: gslp lift order is:
Upper body lift
Curls/neck/chins
Lower body lift
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09-30-2014 , 11:32 AM
So I'm supposed to squat last? Is that recommended even if my form sucks (obv I'll be working on it but realistically it won't be great for the first weeks)? I feel like I might have a harder time keeping a tight core if I'm tired.
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09-30-2014 , 12:28 PM
Have you never lifted? I think starting with SS is prudent, imo. But it's up to you.

Your form on all lifts are going to suck. That's just the reality of starting out.
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09-30-2014 , 12:35 PM
You won't be tired enough for it to affect your form as you should be using light weights, the difference between squatting or benching first is 99 % a matter of preference. If you buy SS or the GSLP e-book they should cover most things. GSLP is annoyingly unprofessional with a bunch of typos and such but the info is decent.
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09-30-2014 , 01:02 PM
I think starting with squats is a no-brainer. Who care's if you're a bit more fatigued for your 2nd lift than you otherwise would be...? Maybe just man up and let your body adapt.

Far more important to be fresh for the most important/full bodied lifts imo. Plus the squat will warm you up nicely for everything else.
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09-30-2014 , 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by kidcolin
Have you never lifted? I think starting with SS is prudent, imo. But it's up to you.

Your form on all lifts are going to suck. That's just the reality of starting out.
I've been doing bro stuff in the past, so I have experience with all but squats and DL.

This summer I also did 3 weeks of (kinda) 5x5 with a friend who know basic technique. My DL achieved non-awful status but my squat did not.

Basically I'm way ahead of someone walking into the gym for the first time and think I have the ability to pick things up a lot faster, but I'm aware I suck and most likely will for quite some time.
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09-30-2014 , 01:46 PM
The problem with starting out with gslp is that beginners typically don't have the experience level to know how much they have in the tank. They might think the 3rd set of 5 was the absolute limit for them, when really they might have 2 or 3 in the tank. It's not a mental and physical issue.
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09-30-2014 , 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidcolin
The problem with starting out with gslp is that beginners typically don't have the experience level to know how much they have in the tank. They might think the 3rd set of 5 was the absolute limit for them, when really they might have 2 or 3 in the tank. It's not a mental and physical issue.
You mean they do 5 reps in the 3rd set when they could have done 7-8?
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09-30-2014 , 03:03 PM
Yes, when you're not experienced at lifting, (and sometimes when you are, but push the limits too hard), it's hard to tell when you are going to fail a rep, and will stop short on some sets, or go the extra rep on others and fail it.

As you become more experienced, you get better at listening to your body tell you when you cannot make another rep.

If your squats did not progress, you might not have been doing them enough/eating enough to compensate for the amount of running you are doing.

What are your goals in strength training? I looked at some of your log to see what you are doing, but only saw marathons and a brunch, but didn't go back too far.

I think I'd do starting strength squat mode for now - get in the extra work 3x/week and take those noob gains. Eat more (esp protein) to make up for the extra caloric output, and then after you start to see gains dropoff, look at something maybe like Texas Method or add assistance work like front squats and/or more squats.
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09-30-2014 , 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by udbrky
Yes, when you're not experienced at lifting, (and sometimes when you are, but push the limits too hard), it's hard to tell when you are going to fail a rep, and will stop short on some sets, or go the extra rep on others and fail it.

As you become more experienced, you get better at listening to your body tell you when you cannot make another rep.

If your squats did not progress, you might not have been doing them enough/eating enough to compensate for the amount of running you are doing.

What are your goals in strength training? I looked at some of your log to see what you are doing, but only saw marathons and a brunch, but didn't go back too far.

I think I'd do starting strength squat mode for now - get in the extra work 3x/week and take those noob gains. Eat more (esp protein) to make up for the extra caloric output, and then after you start to see gains dropoff, look at something maybe like Texas Method or add assistance work like front squats and/or more squats.
Yeah that seems to be true, but is stopping short bad? Isn't that what I'd be doing every set with SS?

As far as goals go they're super generic: to improve core strength, put on muscle, look better and to improve/maintain general health. I don't really see myself as a runner, but I do enjoy and find motivation in training for a race, I like competition. I might find similar motivation in trying to lift heavier weights. It's unlikely I will end up focusing entirely on either running or lifting, but for the coming ~6 months I'm planning to put the main focus on lifting.
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09-30-2014 , 07:05 PM
Well with SS, on day 1, you start low and move up progressively until you reach the point where your last 5 is a struggle - you get slower, it gets harder to do. Then, you progressively add 10# or 5# per workout. You leave 1, maybe 2 reps in the tank, but the idea is, you're working out at pretty much your true 5rm range, so you won't really be leaving reps in the tank much.
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09-30-2014 , 10:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by udbrky
Well with SS, on day 1, you start low and move up progressively until you reach the point where your last 5 is a struggle - you get slower, it gets harder to do. Then, you progressively add 10# or 5# per workout. You leave 1, maybe 2 reps in the tank, but the idea is, you're working out at pretty much your true 5rm range, so you won't really be leaving reps in the tank much.
I've only had time for some quick research on phone, but to my understanding GSLP starts low (2x5, 1x10-12), has linear progression and resets at 2x5, 1x4. I think I'm missing something here, but to me both seem to be progressing towards 5rm and the only difference is that SS skips the extra reps in the last sets.
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09-30-2014 , 11:27 PM
That high of reps seems unnecessary for a beginner.

This site is geared towards power lifters, but he does a good job of giving the pros and cons of various beginner/early intermediate/requested programs - http://www.powerliftingtowin.com/powerlifting-programs/
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10-01-2014 , 12:09 AM
After two months of SS, I'm not leaving very many reps on the table for sure.
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10-01-2014 , 12:28 AM
Thanks, cool link. He seems to think GSLP is the best program for beginners.

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The reality is that, because of the AMRAP set, GreySkull actually IS periodized. Immediately after a stall and a 10% reset, you’re going to hit much higher reps on your AMRAP than you were before the stall. This is of course due to the fact that you can do more reps with lighter weights than heavy weights. However, the additional volume you get from these AMRAP sets, as well as the fact that you’re likely going to be working in the ~10 rep range, biases these reset periods quite a ways towards hypertrophy. Once you get heavier again, the reps will come down hence the periodization.

Now, this isn’t “necessary” for a novice to make progress. We’ve already established that novices can develop strength, technique, and muscle mass simultaneously. However, because you’re still maintaining a linear progress, it doesn’t really hurt anything either. In fact, for those of you who want some additional mass, the resets are a blessing.

...

As I’ve said elsewhere, I believe that the GreySkull LP is currently the best available option on the market for novices. Whether you’re interested in strength or hypertrophy, the GreySkull book is going to give you the tools to meet your needs.
I'm heading to the gym for my first workout in about an hour, but I bookmarked the link for future reading.
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10-01-2014 , 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by MrWookie
After two months of SS, I'm not leaving very many reps on the table for sure.
That's normal. Keep in mind though that this does not necessarily mean that you don't still have several weeks (or even months) of linear gains left.
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10-01-2014 , 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Nick Royale
Thanks, cool link. He seems to think GSLP is the best program for beginners.
I have to concur with that.
In addition to the (IMO better) rep scheme / resetting thing, SS is just a bit too lower-body dominant program for anyone lifting for general health and/or to look better.

Unless the trainee is really into powerlifting, or even more specifically into squatting, GSLP wins.

That said, we're talking about very marginal differencies here. As long as the program revolves around big compound lifts done in reasonable rep ranges and you keep adding weight to the bar, you're doing things in close to optimal manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Royale
I'm heading to the gym for my first workout in about an hour, but I bookmarked the link for future reading.
GL.
Remember to record yourself and post videos in your log and/or formcheck-sticky.
Formcheck-videos are an invaluable tool.
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10-02-2014 , 02:07 PM
Two quickies:

1. What are the main differences between bent over rows and DB rows and the pros and cons of each? I switch between them but since DB rows are easier to perform and I can move more weight (per hand) with them I was wondering if there's any real benefit to also be doing bent over rows.

2. I've watched Dave Tate's SYTYCB but one thing I can't really get to work is using my chest. I wouldn't otherwise care but I suspect I'm relying mostly on shoulders and triceps for benching and that's why it's my worst lift. Even if I do DB flyes the feeling in my chest is very minor so I guess I just can't activate my chest. Any tips for this?
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