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Old Yesterday, 11:44 AM   #25051
Johnny Truant
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Re: ****Official Beginner Question Thread****

Well, a couple of points here. First, any beginner is going to have to ford the rivers of bro science, opinion, anecdotes, individualism and **** studies if they are going to do this. There is no shelter. It may be one of the bigger obstacles.

Second, I appreciate needing a study for proof, but we don’t have a lot of good studies on a lot of subjects. Those we do have are largely garbage-poorly constructed or controlled. Questionable conclusions from the results. It can be counterproductive to rely on that standard as well. A professional in the field, or even a very experienced athlete may have better conclusions than a poor study. In this case there are many articles that talk about practical use of grip strength to measure recovery or readiness of athletes. They may be wrong in their conclusions of why—cns—but taking what they observe can be valuable to us.

I mean look. Everyone agrees creatine works at this point. It worked before any studies were conducted tho.
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Old Yesterday, 12:20 PM   #25052
Renton555
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Re: ****Official Beginner Question Thread****

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Truant View Post
Second, I appreciate needing a study for proof, but we don’t have a lot of good studies on a lot of subjects. Those we do have are largely garbage-poorly constructed or controlled. Questionable conclusions from the results. It can be counterproductive to rely on that standard as well. A professional in the field, or even a very experienced athlete may have better conclusions than a poor study. In this case there are many articles that talk about practical use of grip strength to measure recovery or readiness of athletes. They may be wrong in their conclusions of why—cns—but taking what they observe can be valuable to us.

I mean look. Everyone agrees creatine works at this point. It worked before any studies were conducted tho.
I don't see how it is useful to make up imaginary-- that's what we are talking about here-- types of fatigue. Let fatigue just be fatigue and use some form of load management in your program to keep it within a reasonable range. Don't walk up to a deadlift bar with the anticipation that you're about to "trash your CNS." Just lift the weight and use straps when necessary.

This isn't the same as using creatine before the studies. In that case it's a supplement that people were getting a lot of purported benefit from and the negatives to using it were non existent. Using creatine was free rolling a positive outcome. Regarding CNS fatigue as a thing is a negative freeroll.
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Old Yesterday, 01:07 PM   #25053
Johnny Truant
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Re: ****Official Beginner Question Thread****

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Originally Posted by Renton555 View Post
I don't see how it is useful to make up imaginary-- that's what we are talking about here-- types of fatigue. Let fatigue just be fatigue and use some form of load management in your program to keep it within a reasonable range. Don't walk up to a deadlift bar with the anticipation that you're about to "trash your CNS." Just lift the weight and use straps when necessary.

This isn't the same as using creatine before the studies. In that case it's a supplement that people were getting a lot of purported benefit from and the negatives to using it were non existent. Using creatine was free rolling a positive outcome. Regarding CNS fatigue as a thing is a negative freeroll.
Well, I disagree with how you are using the information. If you use periodization in your programming, for example, you are applying a potentially arbitrary formula that is likely suboptimal for your gains. If you are able to use grip strength as an indicator for readiness or recovery, it could certainly be positive, not only negative in how you set up for the day and week. Call it whatever you want--CNS, overall fatigue, the why behind it may remain unknown for our lifetimes.

As for creatine, you are correct in hindsight. If creatine was being introduced right now it would not meet the criteria for anything other than broscience, particularly because even if people observed it worked they would not know why, and yet would still offer their bro-science theories as to why. It also was not known to be safe until it was proven safe, so how was it a freeroll?

A current example is curcumin. It is being touted as the cure-all for everything under the sun right now. I had some joint pain start about a year ago and decided to try taking that and glucosamine since it was cheap and kind of a freeroll. It really is not though, because who knows what the side effects could be? Either way, I have not had an issue since supplementing daily with it. I know this is purely anecdotal. I also know that it could be any number of factors outside of the sups that are causing the change. At this point there are not good studies that are conclusive, but it either works or it doesn't to reduce this specific inflammation, and that is true now before they find out with studies and before they understand why.

Another example the other direction that we have talked about briefly is Brett Contreras's studies with EMG. He just came out with another self-study on the "best" back and bicep exercises. It is flawed af for so many reasons, but the god damned premise is ridic to begin with. There is zero proof that the EMG measured activation causes optimal strength or hypertrophy. But it's measurable, right? so it has to be better?

It's fine to say we don't know and that working theories without data are not proof, but dismissing them out of hand because of it is overly nitty and hold individual progress back in the gym, IMO.

Last edited by Johnny Truant; Yesterday at 01:29 PM. Reason: proof, not indication, causes not correlates
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Old Yesterday, 01:22 PM   #25054
nuclear500
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Re: ****Official Beginner Question Thread****

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Originally Posted by Renton555 View Post
I dunno maybe holding on to heavy things is just hard for us, and being more or less psyched up on a given day affects performance more than in other things.
Hrm.

That IS the CNS.

The entire idea of being 'psyched up' or "on fire" is because your CNS is "firing on all cylinders"
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Old Yesterday, 02:01 PM   #25055
Renton555
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Re: ****Official Beginner Question Thread****

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Truant View Post
Well, I disagree with how you are using the information. If you use periodization in your programming, for example, you are applying a potentially arbitrary formula that is likely suboptimal for your gains. If you are able to use grip strength as an indicator for readiness or recovery, it could certainly be positive, not only negative in how you set up for the day and week. Call it whatever you want--CNS, overall fatigue, the why behind it may remain unknown for our lifetimes.

As for creatine, you are correct in hindsight. If creatine was being introduced right now it would not meet the criteria for anything other than broscience, particularly because even if people observed it worked they would not know why, and yet would still offer their bro-science theories as to why. It also was not known to be safe until it was proven safe, so how was it a freeroll?

A current example is curcumin. It is being touted as the cure-all for everything under the sun right now. I had some joint pain start about a year ago and decided to try taking that and glucosamine since it was cheap and kind of a freeroll. It really is not though, because who knows what the side effects could be? Either way, I have not had an issue since supplementing daily with it. I know this is purely anecdotal. I also know that it could be any number of factors outside of the sups that are causing the change. At this point there are not good studies that are conclusive, but it either works or it doesn't to reduce this specific inflammation, and that is true now before they find out with studies and before they understand why.

Another example the other direction that we have talked about briefly is Brett Contreras's studies with EMG. He just came out with another self-study on the "best" back and bicep exercises. It is flawed af for so many reasons, but the god damned premise is ridic to begin with. There is zero proof that the EMG measured activation causes optimal strength or hypertrophy. But it's measurable, right? so it has to be better?

It's fine to say we don't know and that working theories without data are not proof, but dismissing them out of hand because of it is overly nitty and hold individual progress back in the gym, IMO.
I can't address the whole post right now but two things. First, with creatine or any product that is sold on the open market, it is generally tested for safe consumption. I don't know the detailed history of creatine, but I suspect it was known to be safe to humans long before it was known to cause increased strength and hypertrophy. Hence, a freeroll.

A different example would be meal timing. If you're trying to get jacked and lean, it's probably a good idea to eat 5 small to moderate meals of >30g protein a day instead of 3 >50g meals, even though there are few studies to back it up. We have a fairly well-tested hypothesis that more frequent meals > less frequent for body composition, and all bodybuilders have been eating that way for years. It's at least a freeroll and it's not that hard to do if you're serious about bodybuilding, so it is smart to do it.

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Originally Posted by nuclear500 View Post
Hrm.

That IS the CNS.

The entire idea of being 'psyched up' or "on fire" is because your CNS is "firing on all cylinders"
Whatever the hypothesized "CNS fatigue" is, it's most likely a different thing from psychological arousal. Systemic fatigue is purported to have a dose-response relationship to volume and intensity, and decays at a somewhat predictable rate, hence how programs are written. Psychological arousal is much more random on any given day.
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Old Yesterday, 02:37 PM   #25056
Johnny Truant
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Re: ****Official Beginner Question Thread****

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Originally Posted by Renton555 View Post
I can't address the whole post right now but two things. First, with creatine or any product that is sold on the open market, it is generally tested for safe consumption.
No. This is not a point of opinion.

https://ods.od.nih.gov/Health_Inform...Questions.aspx

Quote:
Q. How can I get more information about a particular dietary supplement such as whether it is safe and effective?

A. Scientific evidence supporting the benefits of some dietary supplements (e.g., vitamins and minerals) is well established for certain health conditions, but others need further study. This is partly due to the way dietary supplements are regulated by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

Research studies in people to prove that a dietary supplement is safe are not required before the supplement is marketed, unlike for drugs. It is the responsibility of dietary supplement manufacturers/distributors to ensure that their products are safe and that their label claims are accurate and truthful. If the FDA finds a supplement to be unsafe once it is on the market, only then can it take action against the manufacturer and/or distributor, such as by issuing a warning or requiring the product to be removed from the marketplace.
ETA there are many examples of products being marketed as safe workout or weight loss supplements and later pulled. A well-known one is ephedrine.

Last edited by Johnny Truant; Yesterday at 02:45 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 02:52 PM   #25057
Renton555
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Re: ****Official Beginner Question Thread****

I didn't say it was required by the state to be tested, and I said "generally," not "always." I'll let you have the last word on this topic otherwise. You can take it to mine or your log if you'd like to talk about it more.
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Old Today, 07:57 AM   #25058
MMSS
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Re: ****Official Beginner Question Thread****

I recently started lifting and have mostly been taking it pretty easy learning the main lifts etc.

About two weeks ago I was squatting started off with the bar to warm up and then 10kg on each side for 5 sets of 5 which obviously isn't heavy but was like my 3rd time squatting none of the sets were difficult but in my last set I could really feel it in my upper right calf below the knee. The next day I literally couldn't bend or straighten my leg and up until yesterday (~2 weeks) I had restricted motion and pain to the touch in that upper calf lower outside knee area. As far as I can tell there aren't any knee snapping faults in my form, the only issue I've picked up on is slight back rounding at the bottom of my squat, but I'm obviously new so that may be rubbish.

Now obviously I want to get back into learning to do this and I'm putting it down to just tweaking something but is there anything I can do to ease back into it or check the recovery?
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