I ran competitively loco.

There was also a guy who came around here who said my 23 pull-ups were fake, due to the ROM. That he use to do 20 100% strict when he was 17 years old. I loled.


Also running in the 90s is dinosaur style. Everything changed. It's kinda of how in the 90s, alcohol in moderation was good for you.


Running is great, all humans should enjoy it if they do it right. And that means training almost exclusively at fatmax.

I saw my running partners training from his competitive high school days. I loled. Dinosaur alert. Poor guy, no wonder he can't stay consistent with it. He has no clue what he is doing.

Not saying you have no clue, but you a dinosaur. I read Alan Couzens unpublished book for fun. He is foremost endurance authority. San Milan is overrated. Seiler is solid.

Hope to see you back running. Maybe we can race off one day. Remember one thing. 99% of workouts should be enjoyable. You feel better after running, rarely worse. When you understand that, then yes I am in trouble.

I hate running. This is why I stopped.

Regardless, averaging mileage that is a "Hey guys I'm running my first marathon" level of commitment hardly qualifies you to speak on this conversation with anymore certainty than the rest of us who also don't envision putting ourselves in the hospital via jogging. (A weirdly common ailment for these folks at 25+ hours a week.)

Missed logging a few sessions before skiing and then only got a few treadmill sessions in while I was there, but we move on.

2/7: Marathon W21D4
Long Progression Run
20:00 - 2.28 mi/8:47 pace/142 HR/155 MHR
12.0 mi - 1:34:28.1/7:52 pace/160 HR/176 MHR

Meh. Holding an 8:00 pace for the whole marathon seems like it's going to be a big challenge, but we'll see how it goes I suppose.

how many weeks til the marathon?

2/8: Marathon W21D5
Recovery Run
30:00 - 3.08 mi /9:45 pace/133 HR/145 MHR

2/9: Marathon W21D6
A
NG Pullups: +15 x7, x6, x5
RFESS: +30 x10x3

B
Farmer's Carries (75 lb DBs): x~40 sec, x~35 sec, x~30 sec

C
Bench: wu, 155x8x2, x7
Facepulls: 4x15
Seated Calf: 3x15

D
Incline Bench: 50s x8x2, x7
DB Pullovers: 65 x10, x9, x7

E
Overhead Rope Tri: x10, x12, x10
DB Hammer: 25s x10x3

F
Leg Extensions: x16, x12
Leg Curl: x18, x13
Leg Adductor: 2x15
Leg Abductor: 2x15

Finally back in town, so back into the gym, albeit at much lower weights.

Feelers,

The marathon is March 3rd, so three weeks from Sunday.

12 miles at marathon pace always feels tough.

It's race intensity for 90 minutes all by your lonesome. Thinking the whole time, what the hell have I gotten myself into.

I personally don't do marathon paced workouts over 10 miles. They sucke balls. I rather race a half marathon, which is harder but at least there is other donks out there running with me.

Point is, the race itself will make the 8:00 minute pace feel easier.

But it is very worrisome that 12 miles at 8:00 pace reached 176 heart rate. That is not 3:30 marathon shape. Hopefully environmental factors or hills slowed you down. Or else we looking at 3:45 baby.

I’ve given up looking at other people’s heart rates given the variance. Arjun should be dead by now

Iirc you double your half marathon minutes and then add 10% to get to a close FM predictor?

All fair points, plus I'll be sticking to 8:00-8:05 for the first half at least, which will hopefully be meaningfully easier.

Re: MHR, It was comfortably under 170 until the last hill, and the 176 was a momentary spike on another hill about 9 miles in, so I think I'm ok. Time will tell.

For a marathon type run, up the hill and down the hill are both marathon effort but not average marathon speed. That means up the hill is gonna be slower than down hill. And down the hill needs to be faster than MP.

During the race you can't let your heart rate hit 176. Lol. Maybe last half mile.

For example, NY is a super roller like Chattanooga. My first mile was up an extreme bridge at 7:35 pace. Some downhill miles were 6:22. I had to keep looking at my watch. I mastered the uphill but I didn't really know when I was going downhill.

So I had to look at my watch and if I saw low 140s hr had to bring it up to 147. I never saw 150 til mile 18. I ran a beaut, close to perfect race. I however had very little cardiac drift. You look like a drifter to me.

So what does that mean? At your current level of fitness, those first few miles better be in the high 150s to low 160s hr. Look at that MP training run we are discussing, it should match what I am saying.

If you are high 160s in Chattanooga early in the race, you are a goner. Mail it in. And please don't break 170 til mile 20+.

Let me repeat this again. If you are near lactate threshold during a marathon you are in facking trouble, it better be mile 24+.

Now I am going off memory so I might be slightly off on some of these numbers. Post the heart rate graph of all major runs this next week. I want to see the cardiac drift from beginning to end. Anything at MP would be especially valuable, even if it is only 5 miles.

Thanks man, and will do - I've got 15 miles planned for tomorrow or Sunday, depending on how I feel tomorrow, which includes 10 miles at marathon pace. I'll post the HR/elevation graph from that one and an easy run later in the week.

15 miles with 10 at MP. Brutal. I would not be looking forward to that.

But a very telling run.

2/10: Marathon W21D7
Long Progression Run
3.0 mi - 26:40.9/8:54 pace/142 HR/160 MHR
5.0 mi - 39:56.9/7:59 pace/158 HR/168 MHR
1.0 mi - 8:52.5/8:53 pace/151 HR/162 MHR
5.0 mi - 40:01.3/8:00 pace/163 HR/173 MHR
1.0 mi - 8:59.2/8:59 pace/158 HR/171 MHR

Finishing with that last hill definitely sucked, but beyond that I felt pretty good on this one; I did it with my friend with whom I'm running Chattanooga. He wasn't sure he was going to be able to keep up, but he ended up being able to stick with me the whole way and I think we were each better for it.

Re: HR, this seems a bit higher than I'd hoped, though I did dial down the pace a bit when encountering hills and I think that helped. Feels like an 8:15 pace is probably a more realistic target for the marathon, but we'll see how I feel on the day of the race I suppose.

2x5mile @mp not as telling as 1x10mile @mp.


This looks like you are possibly in 3:30 shape.


The max heart rate spikes look to be artefacts, especially the first peak at 178. There is no 178 anywhere in there.

I would remove max heart rate from your reports. Avg heart rate is enough and that data jives with a 154-169 hr marathon, averaging around 161ish.

You probably ran a good race if you never see 170hr during the actual marathon.

If this was a cold pancake course I would bet money on sub3. But this roller is a bit concerning, even though weather should be good.

What I really hate about Chattanooga is that you really are not gonna see when you are going downhill. It's nonstop roller, no big uphill or downhill. What that means is, its going to be tough to get back some of the losses from the uphill running. The only clue you will have that you are going downhill is a drop in heart rate. You see any mid150s after mile 5, you gotta crank it up. You see any high 160s, you gotta crank it down.

Sorry, partially relevant memory lane stuff

My marathon (Sydney) was fairly undulating - particularly the last 10k. And it was fine, right up until the point that it wasn’t…which was the last 5-6 km when every time I turned the corner there was another ****ing hill and it really killed me mentally and physically

Not coincidentally, I remember checking my heart rate for the first time at about 35 km and it was between 172 and 175 which was higher than it had been at any point during any long training run (I was 31 when I ran it I think)

The HR hit 176 and I took the strap off - just didn’t want the doubts in my mind of seeing it any higher.

That last 6 k I went from a 3.15 ish finish to a 3.26. Was the most miserable experience I can remember in an athletic pursuit

Thanks; I fat fingered that MHR - it was 168, not 178. Agreed on the course, but it is what it is; thanks for the advice re: the elevation.

This is the chart from Wednesday's run - 20 minutes easy and 12 minutes marathon pace:

That sounds like hell, which is why I think I'm going to try to negative split it and run the first half pretty conservatively (to the extent I even know what that is for a marathon, which I will concede I likely do not). My threshold is 173 bpm, so if I'm there at any point before the last few miles (outside of hill spikes) I'm anticipating bad times.

That was my plan too but I probably ‘accelerated’ too quickly. I ran a very slow first 10k - probably close to 3.45 pace and then gradually ramped it up from there. I don’t think I got overtaken til 34/35k and at 30k I was harbouring 3.12 thoughts (which was what my friend had run London in). I do think I had 3.15 in me but I should have forced myself to run slower until closer to half way

Being goal oriented isn’t always ideal tbh and I do think there’s an argument for just running within yourself for much of the race if not all of it and just enjoy the occasion.

I definitely think this should be the strat if you're gonna run another one. albeit…who can predict the future? i would have been
certain I'd run several more but i never did

I wish this was whatsapp and I can just edit the photo and circle stuff.

00:00 Too fast, that's a hill bro and you revving into the high 150s during the easy part.

39:00 - 50:00 Too slow. You probably averaging exactly 7:59, but this mostly downhill. Should have seen some 7:4x here.

58:00-1:05 same thing too slow.


Obviously this is all fine for a training run. But for a marathon we want see a nice sloping line going from the 150s and slowly creeping to the high 160s at the very end. The hills should have no impact on this sloping line.

But at the end of the day, if you decide to average 7:59 for every single mile it won't cost you that much. Maybe a minute or two, it's a roller but I didn't see any monster hill like new york or Boston.

The important part being, avoid creeping up to the high 160s unless its mile 23 and there is gas in the tank.

On the 10 continuous mp miles, the first 5 miles look so good. But then there is clearly cardiac drift into the 160s. Which is fine, you are gonna see 160s most of the time during the marathon. But a bit concerning since it's only 10 miles and is that some mid 160s there at the end?? I would like to see mid160s more like mile 18+, maybe 20+.

Maybe a gel at every 5 miles will help. And sipping water. Not sure you even nutrition during a long run. I don't, not even water. But I surely do during the marathon, I ain't dumb.

With that data alone, I make you a slight dog to run sub3:30. The taper will help. The carb binging the day before will help.

Wait do you have supershoes?!!!!!!

If you don't run in supershoes, I would get some vaporfly2s online, half a size bigger than your normal walking shoe. But you have to run a few runs with them before the marathon.

You should pick up 2+%. Which is facking over 4 minutes!!! And I would target feelwraths weak 3:26.

I only say VF2s because online you can get them for 150 bucks. But you one of the great rich whites around here, so can't fault you for balling with VF3s. AF3s would be the ultimate baller since you probably have to pay 400+. But then you will be pogosticking your way to shaming feel wrath.

My heart rate generally spikes up in the first mile and then settles back down after that; I guess that means I'm starting too fast? I need to stop caring about my warmup paces I suppose.

I averaged 7:52 for that block of 12 miles, but message received that I should be moving a little faster going downhill.

Re: cardiac drift, I generally bring water and gels with me on a long run, but I have a few ounces of water at most; not that I have a ton of experience racing, but I was planning to alternate water and Gatorade every aid station and take a salt pill every hour or so, so hopefully that helps with keeping my heartrate slope a bit less steep in the first half of the race. Gels I've been doing every 35-40 minutes while training anything longer than 90 minutes and I figured I'd stick with that plan for the race.

No supershoes; I run in Asics Superblasts for everything and have never run in a supershoe before. No risk of injury if I get a pair and trial them for a few miles before the race? Feels like it may be risking injury to run a whole race in them with little to no experience with how (I'd assume) it modifies your stride and gait, but you'd know better than I would.

I think supershoes are protective. Better recovery.

Superblasts are stiff so you can't go with alpha Flys. I would order the VF2s asap. Run 6 miles easy. 8 miles easy. Then some scheduled MP work.

If they feel good, let it RIP. If they don't, then just use them for intervals in the future.

If the drop is the same, its no big deal. Both those shoes probably drop 8mm. Obviously I wouldn't switch from 8mm drop to 0mm drop, calf tear alert.

Alright, you convinced me, I ordered a pair of Vaporfly 2s off of eBay. We'll see how it goes.

While you're in a convincible mood, I don't suppose we could get an undertitle change to Great Rich White

Melk,

If only I had the huevos.

2/12: Marathon W22D3
Easy Run
8.0 mi - 1:10:37/8:49 pace/146 HR

Probably went slightly too fast on this given the average HR but was running with a buddy. Last hard workout is Wednesday, then a track session Saturday, and then the taper starts.