There at least 5 of us training for a marathon this summer so i thought it would be better if we all logged in one thread as an individual log doesn't really get enough traffic and this way we can all share our thoughts, progress and logs.

I'm training for the Blackpool Marathon on April 27th. I've been training for about 3 months now and want to run this sub 4 hours. I guess the general opinion will be that it isn't possible, but shrug, i'm still going to shoot for it.

This goal is also just part of a bigger goal which is to complete the Marathon of Britain in Sept 2009 (165 miles in 6 days) which i have a $5k prop bet on at 3:1. I also want to run the Comrades UltraMarathon June 2009 and so i guess i need a qualifying run for that too.

So today i'm going to start yasso 800s. Today's being 4 * 400s at 3:55. I'm adding in speedwork so hopefully i'll run my recovery runs slower and at a lower heart rate as i wont feel the urge to push myself on those so much. I hate running slow. Today should be somewhat easy.

So post your introductions and logs, gogogo!

I intend to run the Shadow of the Giants 50k, which apparently is actually more like a 56k on May 31st. On a whim last year I entered a 33 mile trail race in Big Bear, and had a blast despite being undertrained, drinking the night before, driving to the race straight from the bar and running on 1 hr sleep. Ultras are a bit of a different animal, but to me an infinitely better experience than pounding pavement for 26 miles. They're on trails, there is usually several thousand feet of elevation gain, and the fields are usually quite small. At the race last year, each aid station had homemade cookies and other foods, and the finish area was just a small tailgate party with a bunch of lawn chairs set up, a guy grilling burgers and dogs with an assortment of snacks and salads to choose from as well. I'm not that into long distance runs, but decided to do one race a year of between 50k and 50 miles. I'd like to be at least a little more prepared this year, finish in the top 8 or so with a tentative goal of about a 5:10.

I've been running regularly for about 3 years since moving to San Diego. For the first year and a half I was running about 20 miles a week, not so much because I liked running, but because the weather was just about always perfect for a run, I didn't have any good people to play tennis with, and I had problems with recurrent dislocations of my left shoulder that made it difficult to lift anything. I entered a couple races, could run about a 19min 5k and 1:30 half marathon. About a year and a half ago I decided to take it a little more seriously, so joined a track club and about doubled my training efforts. Within 6 months I improved to a 17:30 5k and 1:23 half, and have gone nowhere from there in the past year.

For the next month or so, I intend to run about 40-50 miles a week, about 75% of the volume will be slow stuff with one track interval workout and one tempo run each week. In March I'll try to build up some speed for a few 5k races in late March and Early April, then I'll take 2 easy weeks in mid April before focusing on building strength through a lot of hilly trail workouts and hill repeats up through the end of May. On the longer term I'm trying to get ready for some killer ascent races at the end of the summer, the Pike's Peak Ascent (13.3 miles 7800 ft climb) and the Mt Baldy Run to the Top (8 miles 4000 ft climb). At 6'2" 180 lbs I'm about 20 lbs heavy for these type of races, but just intend on doing the best with what I've got and have no desire to whittle away at myself enough to excel at this sport.

For the rest of the week I'll just have a few slow easy runs with a tough trail 15k race on Sunday.

You don't need speed work. You need high mileage. Friends who ran 100 mile races ran training runs from San Francisco to Tiburon and back. That's 34 miles in training. You need a huge base in miles per week. Probably 70 to 100 miles a week.
How fit are you now? 20 months isn't a long time for an ultra.

Geez 165 miles, I can't even imagine.

I'm 23, and I'm base building with Maffetone training for my second marathon, Chicago 2008 on October 12. I ran my first last year (the infamous Chicago Marathon 2007) and finished in 4:39. I had 4 to 5 minor injuries throughout last winter/spring that interruped my training, so I figure if weather is somewhat normal (no higher than 70? I'm not asking for much) and I can keep healthy I am going to shoot for a 3:40 to 3:45 finish time.

Come June I think I am going to go with a Pfitzinger (sp?) plan after using Hal Higdon's novice plan last year. I think I could have benefited from speedwork, but given it was my first, I just wanted to enjoy the experience and not die.

I'll try to stick with this thread, but given my registration date/post count to the left, you can see I'm not too good at it. Good luck to everyone.

5 times your 10K is a reasonable goal for a marathon. You should be able to run a 10K in under 44. If not, only those who a really well trained have a chance.

just my opinion, but I think with even adequate training, people should be able to do a little better than 10K*5 for a marathon. On the three charts I just looked at, the equivalent marathon time for a 44 minute 10K was about a 3:25 marathon. For a 3:40 marathon, the associated 10K time was about 47 minutes.

Here's a good online calculator that for me is always extremely close

I think 5*10K is a pretty decent bench mark. 40 min 10k = 3:20 marathon. FWIW, my best 10K is just over 40 min, with a 3:17 mara PR. So I did a little better than 5*10K, but not a whole lot.

The site used 4.7 X 10K. Bet you less than 10% of runners ever succeed.

Those elite runners can go under 4.65.

Good tip. I haven't run a 10k race in a while, so my numbers really wouldn't translate well anyway. The race is so far away I really can't (and shouldn't) set a specific goal yet, as I am just trying to increase my base weekly mileage for the next 4-5 months. I'll probably re-evaluate come June/July.

Jay,

I think 4h is absolutely possible but it sounds a bit odd that you are talking about 400m intervals.

A typical 4h marathon training program would be something like 3x5 mile runs and a 10-15 mile long run in a week. Maybe replace one of the 5 mile runs with something fancier.

He meant to write 800m as a Yasso 800 is 800m (and a 3:55 400m is not right). Yassos are a good way to get that "something fancier" you mention -- they're really not terribly fast, just adds some interval effect and they're fun. You run 800m in m:ss in what you plan to do the marathon in h:mm. So if you're goal is a 3:15 marathon, you do 3:15 800s, building up the number as you go. Light jog in between (don't walk it off).

hmmm I am not marathon training yet, but I definitely want to fairly soon.

I ran a 46:38 10k (struggled a bit) today and stuck it into that pretty sweet calculator and my real 5k is significantly better than what the calculator says it should be. Do you think the fact I do mostly short runs (< 4 miles), that my times are skewed a little bit for the shorter times?

Yea this is right. I shouldn't have put 400m in there.

I did the Yassos yesterday and felt pretty easy doing the 4th, feeling like i could have done another two. So because of this should i lower the time for the next lot? Say 3:50 then see how i feel and maybe 3:45 for the 6 repeat.

My pretty Heart Rate graph

At the moment i'm just focusing on the marathon at hand. Once that is out of the way i'll find probably another marathon and a 50 mile ultra in this year. Then the south africa ultra for next year. So after this marathon is over my training will become about mileage per week. Do you think that plan is fine?

Fitness wise i'm not sure, i haven't done any races in ages, i'm following hal's intermediate schedule with yasso 800s thrown in. I have a half marathon race in middle march so i'll know then. If i had to guess I'd say 48 mins for a 10k.

You're getting your HR up into the mid 180s with what you're doing, so unless you have some freakishly high Max HR, I'd say you don't want to push much harder. They're supposed to be strong but controlled, not pushing the limit of what you're capable of before collapsing. Just focus on building up to 10x800 over the next weeks then reevaluate what a strong but controlled pace is for you.

Yasso 800s by themselves are a poor predictor of marathon performance. The most accurate statement is that if you are well trained aerobically and have done all of your long runs, and if you can't complete the 10x800 workout in the time corresponding to your marathon goal pace, then you probably can't reach your goal this time around. They're a fun workout and nice change of pace but don't get too carried away about what they mean.

yeah, the point of that calculator is to give you an idea of how you would do at a distance if you had done the appropriate training for that distance.

For whatever reason, I feel really comfortable in my mid 80s. My average heart rate on today's 6m at pace (should have been 9:09 but did 8:55) was 83% whr which i'd rate as about 4/10 in difficulty.

I ran my 12mile long run today which ended up being a 12.5 mile run. 9:27 pace going a fair amount slower than i could have been so my avg whr was 79%/169bpm. Felt great. Feel even better now as sub 4 hours feels very possible.

My only worry is my Achilles tendon and knees which i've been having a fair amount of pain from both but i've been stretching them both like crazy lately and been strength training quads and calves to hopefully help too. Also working on my running form too.

Good job Jay! Way to keep putting the miles in and I love your optimism. Do you have a foam roller? That can do magic for working out knots in the IT band that can put a ton of stress on the knee.

I had a 15k trail race yesterday in rainy and windy conditions that reduced the trail to absolute slop. The steep uphills were like trying to climb out of a mudpit, with my feet sliding backwards in between every stride. With zero traction on some of the steep downhills, I was actually skiing through the mud on my running shoes. It's a rare race that my footing felt more secure on the stream crossings than on the trail. I abandoned any thought of racing about 2 minutes in and just tried to focus on not getting hurt. Overall I got a few good tempo miles in, and the hills were a good workout. Finishing time 1:18:29, way back in the pack.

I'll be doing a bunch of easy runs this week, with track interval work on Wednesday, and a half marathon race on another relatively hilly course this Sunday.

That run, well ski, sounds like great fun. I think we both share the same passion for the same style of runs, Big Bear sounded good. I can't imagine myself doing lots of marathons through my life but i can imagine doing a lot of trail style ultras in different countries.

I hadn't even heard of a foam rollers before you mentioned them. I feel like my tendon and knee problems are going to become less and less from now. I massively increased my weekly mileage a week back which i think caused the problems but now with all the stretches, strength and getting used to the miles i think they'll settle. If they don't within the next few weeks i'll give the foam roller a try.

Interesting track workout last night. Someone brought a giant Costco style heavy Double Chocolate Cake to work yesterday and I indulged all day long, so my stomach was not pleased when I showed up, even after a couple easy miles of warmup, which usually helps things settle. The workout was 400-800-1600-20 minute easy steady state run-1600-800-400. Results:

400 - 1:17, pretty slow, but the first one always is, and the cake is bouncing heavily in the stomach
800 - stopwatch guy messed up so no time, I'd guess around 2:40, pretty comfortable
1600 - 5:21, completely even pacing on the laps, wow, that's good for me, repeats are usually at 5:29-5:36. I was running 5:19 repeats for a few weeks about a year ago when i was in my best shape, but even then the effort level was significantly higher.
20 minute steady state - 11 laps, about a 7:20 pace, comfortable
1600 - 5:28, oh well not as good as the first one, but still pretty fast, evenly paced and feeling pretty good
800 - 2:37, meh, a little on the slow side, felt like I was running faster than that
400 - 1:14, shockingly slow, as my turnover felt pretty quick.

Overall the miles were very encouraging, the 800s and 400s not so much. A year ago I probably would have run the last 1600 in 5:35, 800 in 2:32, and 400 in 1:07. We've had a new coach for the last 6 months or so, and he really stresses maintaining a relaxed form and not excessively straining during these workouts, so I'm not sure if I've made this change and it's holding me back a bit on the shorter repeats, or if I've really just lost a lot of leg speed. Probably both. Either way I'm hopeful for a good half marathon this weekend.

I ran the Liverpool Half Marathon this weekend. For some reason i had it mind that a 1:57 time is roughly equal to a 4 hr marathon based on the calculators. So that was the goal. At about the 10 mile point i was well within that so i slowed up as the race was only a racing run for me and finished at 1:55:55. Which i'm extremely happy with. Since i now feel that a sub 4 hour marathon is a very real possibility for me with another 8 weeks of training left. Thoughts?

Also, i don't know how possible this next goal is possible but, i have to do a qualifying marathon for the south africa ultra in 2009. This can be any main marathon from June 2008 to May 2009. I'd also like to use this marathon to _possibly_ qualify for boston. So I'd have to go from a sub 4 hour marathon on the last day of April to a 3:20 marathon around March the following year, would that be possible?

Cheers.

A marathon is much tougher than twice a half marathon.
I can run a half without ever stopping for water.
My half best is under 1:22.
The marathon is a different animal. Can't drink water while running fast. One must train for this. No way to train without someone assisting you.
All kinds of unexpected problems occur. Your feet may blister. Your legs may cramp. My body expands when under stress. Shorts became too tight. Shoes became too small.
Every little problem adds to your marathon time.
None of these problems ever occurred during 20+ miles training runs. They just pop up during a real marathon.

I ran my first half after about 7 months of training. 1:32. An extremely hilly course.
First marathon 7 more months later in 3:22.

In a year definetly. 3:20 is decent.

To be confortable you'd have to have an 8 week period in your build up where you averaged 40 miles a week. Maybe a couple of weeks of 50 miles.

I like when training to work in some threshold work at the end of my long runs. So once you've built up to a 20 mile run, your last 8 weeks of long runs by looks something like:

20 Mile
22 Mile
10 Miles then 3 * 1200m at Threshold with 400m jog and then an easy cool down
20 Miles
10mi + 3*1200m
20 Miles
10mi + 3*1200
16mi
10-12mi
Race

Just published my google doc version of my training for the Philly Marathon from 2006. Prior to the log starting, I was running 25-30 miles a week with a long run of 8-10 miles. I started running again in April and did a summer XC series with a friend every other tuesday (5k) but no speed work.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...Bd-4hT1-xbFZZA

I'd say this is the minimum required to get into 3:15-3:20 shape.

I didn't really build into the long runs much, but I have some natural endurance.