lifted then played raquetball for an hour feel exhausted

squats 4x5 135,165,195,225 1x3 265 1x8 195

bench 4x5 115,135,165,195 1x3 230 1x8 165

row 4x5 115,135,165,195 1x3 225 1x8 165

dips 3x5 +80

pull ups 1x3 1x2 +45 just ran out of energy here very disappointing

bb curls 2x10 80,80

OH db tricept extensions 2x8 80,80

Totally dead today I need at least one full rest day. A note on my diet, lately I have been eating a ton but it has been pretty clean. Basically just been eating eggs,veggies,a little bit of fruit, chicken, turkey, lean ground beef, some cheese, some fish and some milk. I have been eating a totally unrestricted amount basically if I am hungry I eat and if it has been 2 or 3 hours since I ate I eat again. After this diet I am now weighing in somewhere between 200 and 210 depending on the scale, I have more belly fat then I would like but I can see abs pretty clearly when I flex. I have not been counting calories daily but have counted a few random days and it seems I eat around 3500-4500 calories a day. No real plan to change any of this up in the immediate future.

sounds like a very good diet and workout plan, you've got your **** together

are you planning on changing from 5x5 any time in the near future?

Yeah I am looking to change sometime although not really sure what to change to. Next time I get stuck on my progress though I am going to take a good look at other program options. Your log rules by the way.

There's really no reason to change away from the 5x5 until your gains really start to slow down. People said they would get bored pretty quickly doing the exact same thing for weeks and weeks straight but I found it being the complete opposite.

But unfortunately the 5x5 will have to come to an end eventually...

Lifted today, felt ok after having the flu for the last two days.

Squats 5x5 135,165,195,225,265

Bench 5x5 115,135,165,195,230

Row 5x5 115,135,165,195,225 form slipped pretty bad here after the first two reps

Oblique medicine ball throws with a 20lb ball for two sets

Two sets of decline sit ups with a 4 second pause at parallel

2x10 hypers +45

got to try and get back on track with cardio tomorrow

situps w/a pause at the hardest part are great. Usually for me it's below parallel.

I can't get those rows at all, Just don't feel em, meh. I tried 145 today to start them and it was easy but I just wasn't feeling the pul in my lats and the correct position for them seemed difficult. How are you doing those and do you have a good instructional vid or anything? You tried DB rows?

personally I'm kind of surprised and intrigued by the 5x5 having rows instead of pullups or anything like that and am afraid I'm missing out on building upper back strength since I'm not deadlifting right now and only do pullups and 1-arm rows other than that. Maybe I should add some rack lockouts idk. Any recommendation?

I also just realized from your log that the "side bend" thing at my gym can probably be used for some sort of hyperextension or back extension or something, how sick good are those reverse hypers?

I used to do 1 arm db rows before this program, my gym only had dbs up to 95 pounds and that got easy pretty fast for me. Im talking about the 1 arm rows where your knee is on the bench and your other hand is on the bench to.

One thing that helped me get the form for rows a bit better was to bring my grip in some so that it is more narrow then by bench grip and much closer to my press grip. Then I try and make sure I am pulling with my elbows back instead of out this seemed to help me hit my lats better then what I was doing before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIUg8nDVEFs this is pretty much what I am doing. The link here from bodybuilding.com helped me get comfortable with this exercise http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...9&postcount=15

Been reading up some on different programs and am thinking about changing to the following soon, any comments or criticisms welcome especially if people think I misplaced exercises or should be doing certain kinds of assistance.

It's pretty similar to the 5x5 I am doing now except all sets are done as work sets instead of ramping the weights. I would progress Mon-Mon Wed-Wed Fri-Fri and try to move up 5 pounds a week in a linear fashion using resets when needed. If my Mon bench failed for example I would reset that but not my Fri bench which I would continue on until it failed. Also I would add cleans on Fridays once I got more comfortable with them at heavier weights.

Mon.

5x5 squats

5x5 bench

5x3 cleans

assistance

3x10 pull ups (or some kind of pull up work)

ab work

Wed.

3x3 Front Squat

5x3 OH press

1x5 dead lift

assistance

light ab work

Fri.

5x2 Squat

5x2 Bench

5x2 Row

assistance

3x5 weighted dips

I don't really like it. Something like 5x2, 5x2, 5x2 for 3 compound lifts in one session just doesn't seem right and I'm not sure if the layout for any of the days makes that much sense. You aren't gonna be doing 5x3 cleans after squatting and benching, lol. Heavy cleans/pulls before squats, if you are doing both on the same session.

That isn't the main reason though, primarily I think if you are going to switch from starting strength, you should ditch the whole linear progression plan and do something more ambitious.

laser,

You're gonna have an extremely difficult time progressing Mon-Mon, Wed-Wed, Fri-Fri. The reason is (according to Practical Programming), a decently strong guy such as yourself is closer to your genetic potential so a workout strenuous enough to cause adaption will need a longer time period to recover from (ie 4 days to a week).

The way you're doing it, you're gonna disrupt homeostasis on Monday, but you won't be recovered enough by Wed so your Wed will be ****ed. On top of that, you're hoping to progress on Friday which isn't reasonable because you'll still be recovering from the accumulated stress from the Mon+Wed workouts. I think that the Texas Method, a program in which one progresses week to week would be much better off for you.

isn't that what he's saying he's going to do? His lifts carry over a week each depending on the day? Unless I read it wrong

Personally I think overtraining is a bit overstated. I think the main issue is the linear program. l don't think a linear periodization based plan is going to be optimal if he has finished making gains from SS, it just doesn't make sense. Not that he wouldn't get good results if he went in and worked hard week after week, there are just better options.

I'm not saying he should switch straight to westside (a well put together program for sure), just that I think he needs to vary his work and volume. Progressive overload is the basis of most pure strength programs nowadays

he's doing back squat and bench on Mon and let's assume that he makes a "PR" on that day. Then after that intense 5x5 PR, he's hoping to get a PR with front squat and OH press with just one day's rest? And on top of those two workouts, he's hoping to gain AGAIN with back squat and bench press on Friday. This would work if he was a complete weak novice but he's pushing some decently heavy weights so there's no way that he can make gains on these overlapping lifts 3x a week.

Like I said I don't like the linear gains plan either, and I don't like the program particularly. I disagree on the overtraining though, especially for the squats.

Laser's back squats are 4 days apart. The front squat hits the muscles differently than a low-bar back squat and is less CNS intensive. With a decent work capacity you can squat 3-4x a week easily and show progress. Many intermediate weightlifters train squats every workout 3x+ a week along with other exercises that are CNS intensive and involve the lower body like heavy pulls, clean and jerk, snatch, and assistance. You have to take recovery measures and have the work capacity but I think it isn't hard to pull off at all especially with the squat.

You want to squat more, squat more. I squat only twice a week right now, but I have my barbell outside and drop into a full squat every time I do O-lifts to train the movement pattern, and sometimes just go outside and crank out a few light reps.

I think you're right about the gains though. He isn't going to hit weekly PRs in overhead press and rows and deadlifts without changing up the rep scheme and layout a lot, and there's no way going for a PR on the front squats is a good idea. Definitely needs some tweaking.

hey BUCKO,

I think you misunderstood my point about over-training. I didn't mean to imply that squatting 3 times a week will lead to over-training. I actually squat 3 times a week. However, in order to that, one must vary the intensity throughout the week. Laser's trying to hit a PR on different squat variants 3x a week and that will lead to over-training.

yeah fair enough, agree with you there for sure. I think there's no point in arguing the details, neither of us like the setup, lol

Ok well I basically got the routine by looking at this post

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...&postcount=245

and in particular this routine


Routine 2

Monday
Squat 5X5
Bench Press 5X5
Power Clean (5X3)or Row

Wednesday
Front Squat 3X3
Press 5X5
Back Extension/GHR
Chin ups

Friday
Squat 1X5
Bench Press
1X5
or 5X3
or 5X2
or 5X1
Dead Lift 1X5

which is kind of similar but I guess I made mine harder anyways some better ideas of a routine to change to would be sweet or at least some links

cardio today was 25 minutes on treadmill of 1min 8mph 1min 4mph

wednesday's volume and intensity should be lower than on M or F. It's an active recovery day, keep the neuromuscular pathways fresh but don't add too much to total workload for the week.

Ok so basically what I want out of my new routine is that it continues to progress my squat, bench and dead lift and that I can learn cleans. Anything besides that is a bonus. I basically understand the Texas method but what I don't really get is exercise selection and placement. Kirks is one way to do it where he does not vary exercises or reps throughout the week but rather is varying intensity and workload but I see other example where these things do change.

What I really don't get though is when Jeff says "you should ditch the whole linear progression plan and do something more ambitious." I am all for being more ambitious but I don't really know what that means.

well, all the linear program does is repeat the movements and increase resistance. That is the only way it attempts to progressively overload your muscles. As you get stronger and more advanced that will show diminishing effectiveness.

Increasing sets, repetition, ROM, frequency, time under tension, intensity, decreasing rest time and changing exercise selection are all means to the same end. If you demand the same thing of of your body it isn't going to respond differently. Even bodybuilders use this principle by going for extra reps, drop sets, changing exercises to make them harder and alternating the isolation exercises they use, etc. But in strength training it is even more crucial.

Maybe you should go to EliteFTS and read about westside. I'm not saying you should do that program, but it gives you a good idea of how a well set up progressive overload program will work. The lifts carry over to each other, you alternate the max effort lifts when you stop showing progress, and you frequently change repetition amounts and other factors to overload your system and constantly hit PRs, and eventually deload and then repeat. Everything is in cycles.

Sheiko http://www.elitefts.com/sheiko/

for westside just read up on elitefts, search it on tnation, search westside and westside basics on google etc, there's stuff everywhere

There are numerous other progressive overload cycles for PL online everywhere. You can DEFINITELY make a program on your own and figure it out for yourself, but you should probably take a look at how some of the more popular programs are structured and figure it out. Plenty of people don't even need a program and can just go in and switch up what they are doing + do assistance lifts and show great progress continuously, but I think it's pretty tough and reading up on westside would definitely help you figure it out. I personally don't have a great feel of that stuff and usually end up making mistakes when I leave it to myself to figure out my program and switch up exercise selection and everything

I would say definitely use weekly progression, anything more drawn out will be a waste of time. Texas Method is a good template to keep up weekly progression for a long time. When you start to plateau on the program, make some slight changes, or even reset.

What exercise selection choices were you not understanding? I can tell you that the press/bench press use a lot of the same muscles, so there is a lot of carryover between the two. Overhead pressing will also work more of the deltoids instead of just the anterior delts, so you get a better balanced shoulder musculature. So it's a good sub for bench press, even on light days.

Thanks for all the help guys I just spent like an hour and a half reading and will do more later today. Starting to get a feel for the cycles I read a bit about west side and also read the page for the Bill Starr advanced program which explains at least the cycles that program uses pretty clearly. I will read elitefts.com when I get home from class.

blackkeys the thing I don't get about Texas method placement is that if Wednesday is my low volume and intensity day then I can't really put dead lifts there but doing dead lifts following high intensity squats seems like it would be pretty hard so where do I put it? Also if I put press on my light day even starting it out pretty small it will eventually reach a weight that is close to my max unless I am purposely limiting progression in the press on my light day. I guess one option is I could sub bench/press week to week I could do heavy press Mon/Fri and light bench Wed then the next week heavy bench Mon/Fri and light press Wed. Not sure if that would mess things up though.

you don't need to progress wed-wed. Wednesday is not about progression. I hear you on the deadlift placement on wed. I would put it on friday and just suck it up. Make sure the press/bench is between the two on fri.

Also, simply alternating the bench and press is a good solution.

Lifted today

4x5 bench 135,165,195,195

4x5 OH press 75,95,115,135 only got 4 reps clean then I push pressed a few more

5x5 dead lift 245,285,315,365,405 boo ya!!! just couldn't make myself wait another week

1 set of hanging leg raises pausing at the top

3 sets of decline sit ups with a 4 second pause