That really sucks man, hope your dad is able to recover fast and that the injury is not serious.

Part of the reason I am so bummed is because he was nervous going into the program about his back, and I promised him that it would do nothing but good for his back. And now it looks like he's hurt pretty bad, might have to take time off work, and I feel pretty bad about it. I mean, our squats aren't perfect, but they are getting pretty close to passable, and def feels like they shouldn't be causing bad injuries.

I've lost some faith in this program tbh. I don't think I can justify recommending it to anyone that is worried about back injuries if they have had back injuries in the past. And I was under the impression it would be silly to tell someone with a "bad back" to stay away from deep good form squats.

I'm def going to keep on progressing for sure, but it's a bummer I lost my workout partner.

standard progression

"oh cool 2p2 has H/F forum"--> "hmmm everyone jizzes over the SS program, they say it cures cancer, sounds good to me" --> "I'm not seeing results, sounds like my form sucks and I'm not eating enough" --> "Damn these lifts are difficult to master, and I'm not seeing results, sounds like my form sucks and I'm not eating enough" --> "4 months in and I have stalled numerous times, sounds like my form sucks and I'm not eating enough" --> "Thremp say I'm a pussy" --> "/scene"

There just aren't that many SS success stories in H/F. I'd say you find about 1 milesdyson for every 5 johnnyfondue's father. I think the program is fine, there are plenty of people who should benefit from mastering more technical lifts with heavy-ass weights. However, I feel H/F needs to personalize it's advice a bit more. This wasn't tough to see, a person with previous lower-back injuries hurting themselves doing squats/DLs. Sure, with solid-to-perfect form there is very little risk of injury, no more so than doing anything else really. However, we cannot expect novices to step in and perform these lifts in a technically correct fashion, and it's something we should at least consider before blindly recommending this program to every person who finds their way to H/F.

Blaming SS for his father's (or anyone's) failures is ridiculous. People fail this novice program, just like they fail to do a lot of things correctly.

How's this for personalized advice?

I bet his dad was putting too much weight on the bar too quickly (something addressed in Practical Programming for Strength Training, mind you) and didn't have a tight upper back and had a rounded lumbar, contributing to spinal shear and eventually an aggravation of his pre-existing injury.

Additionally, his dad was training for a triathlon while on the program. This almost certainly contributed to poor recovery. The theme throughout this whole log is "I don't feel like I am working hard enough in between days" but also "My energy levels are fluctuating." These are very obvious signs that the person doesn't understand recovery cycles and does the standard thing where they try to do too much too soon and end up stalling, or worse, injuring themselves.

Yeah it's a bummer that his dad re-aggravated his back injury, but it's not Rippetoe's fault. I can find four or five things that they "did wrong" in this log, and while that usually isn't a big deal for kids in their 20's, it is a big deal when you're talking about older trainees. WHICH WAS COVERED IN A BOOK THAT IS HEAVILY RECOMMENDED IN THIS FORUM.

Good post kyle.

I think it's fair to say that doing SS properly is pretty hard for a lot of people without access to a coach, and probably harder than most think when starting it. You have to be really dedicated, way more so than doing random gym monkey stuff on machines. Does that mean it's a bad program? Obviously not.

8-13:

No videos follow until September 2nd.

9-19:

9-21:

No videos follow until the middle of October.

After this, there is ONE youtube link to squat/power clean form of the OP, but none of his dad.

Again, these are the contradictions that makes this statement infuriating:

How does the OP know that his father was doing "deep good form squats?" If he was worried about his dad's pre-existing back injuries, he probably should have taken video and asked the subject matter expert - Mark Rippetoe - who freely answers these types of questions and helps with form checks for the public. He himself is a Master's class lifter and understands what old people deal with.

To say "I lost faith in this program" when you didn't even make sure that you were doing it right (especially for someone who is older) is horse**** and I don't mind calling you out on it.

wow good post kyle.

Kyle, while what you say is correct, I'd argue that the majority of people who are advised to do SS on this forum follow a similar path as OP. So, does that make them idiots, or are the people who recommend the program at fault for advising a plan that needs to be followed strictly, yet they know will not be taken seriously enough.

The bottom line is most people **** things up that are difficult. This doesn't make difficult things bad. This applies to computers, science, math, jobs, and you guessed it, exercise science. No one is an idiot for failing to do difficult things. They are idiots for blaming difficult things for their failures.

Strictly followed? Like not being an idiot? Or strictly followed like... it actually has an effect?

I'm not really sure what you're getting at. But I can tell it reeks of mongoloid.

It's their responsibility. Why should someone give subpar advice just because someone may not follow it correctly? In that case let's all recommend light weight for lots of reps on machines or 5 lbs dumbells just to make sure no one ever hurts themselves (they still will, somehow, and they'll never accomplish anything worthwhile). And let's certainly not recommend they work hard and challenge themselves either since that is a little riskier than taking it easy.

Not to continue the dogpile...but

OP on his last technique video.

I suggest ANYONE that is doing squats or any compound lift really, go to Rip's forum and watch through 50+ (yes) videos people have posted with his comments. Learning to recognize very common technique faults is not difficult but it does take time. If JF couldn't recognize (poor video quality is irrelevant) the very glaring problems with his own technique means he was in no way qualified to be training his dad.

That's of course not to say that everyone must become an expert on absolutely every possible fault of the SS compound lifts and their appropriate correction. It does mean you need to be able to recognize the VERY BIG THINGS like: is the lower back in extension throughout the lift? Does the person's weight stay on their heels? Does the bar go straight down? Is the bar positioned on the back properly? etc. etc.

Blaming the program is a copout like others have said. Do you want to train effectively and safely with compound movements? Then take the ****ing time to study them, learn them, or pay someone else to teach you to do them properly.

OP, sorry to hear about your dad. The fact is, even with horrible horrible technique most people will rarely, if ever, seriously injure themselves doing this stuff. Really was unlucky.

Probably way easier to get seriously injured as an older guy, with previous history of back injuries and training for a triathlon as well...

That being said I think it's easy to underestimate how bad form can be, and how much work it's going to take to fix it. The small aches and pains I'm getting as the weight's gotten heavier have been wake-up calls on my part at least.

Ok 1st off, I don't really think we have been adding too much weight too quickly. Were adding slowly, and after almost 3 months in, were only squatting 185.

2nd off, I acknowledge the fact that I failed in attempt to upload as many videos as possible. On the other hand, the last squat video of my dad that I uploaded(that was commented on, no one commented on the one from a couple days ago), everyone agreed it was at least a decent squat with minor things that need to be tweaked. It wasn't like "omg figure this out before you hurt yourself"

The triathlon happened quite a while ago, and since then my dad hasn't done anything except SS, eat and sleep. I realize that I didn't understand recovery cycles, and I am still learning, but that's part of the reason I came here. To learn. I have learned a bunch. I'm still learning and I appreciate the advice.

There too much hate ITT right now. I did upload a squat check for from our last work out for my dad in the LC thread but no one commented on it, or gave it feed back.

I'm just a little emo after losing my workout partner right now.

Your questions are answered in Practical Programming for Strength Training. Your dad isn't some random novice where you increase the weight every workout and hope for the best.

I'm sorry, I don't want to argue with you kyle. You've been a lot of help and I appreciate it. I thought my dad was a novice and that we were doing it right. I guess my ignorance is really showing up now.

I'm going to just re-read everything and study as much as I can before I post more stuff. I didn't think I was super far off track because I have been getting encouragement on this process, in this log, including that fact that I was doing it with my 50-something dad. Thanks again for your help guys.

As far as my workout today, it went like this:

Standard warm ups and stuff and then:
Squat
190x3x5

Bench:
160x5
160x4
160x3

DL:
295x2

I took video of everything, and I'll probably upload some of it later when I wake up. The camera angle on the squat wasn't great, and from I could tell, they looked just ok. They didn't feel great, they didn't feel bad though. Just ok. It's the most I've done and didn't struggle a whole lot with the weight, but I'm still trying to remember everything during each rep of the squat. I feel like golf a lot trying to remember each cue as I swing.

Bench Press. Wow I really sucked at this one really bad. My legs and back were decent, but my arms were surprisingly in really bad position. I noticed it a little at the end of my set, bet when I rewatched it, I realized it looks pretty gross. Embarrassingly bad, actually. I'll upload the 1st and maybe second work set so I can use it as a reminder never to suck that much. On the bright side, I'm happy that I did 160 as much as I did.

Dead lift. Bleh. My back isn't very good. I was going to go for 5, but I could feel how bad my form was on the 2nd rep, and didn't want to hurt myself while I was doing it bad. I should have lowered the weight and finished the set, but I was already late and flew out of there. Gotta rework this one to get my back angle better.

Not terribly frustrated with the workout, but not really happy with it either. Just pretty meh.

Quick Anecdote:

I was at my work yesterday playing cards on my day off, and I was BSin' with my boss for a while. I was talking about my current SS program, and he said it sounded almost exactly like what he was doing when he was my age, 30 something years ago. He said he was benching 325 at 20 years old, but had to stop when he ruptured a disc squatting.

Anyway, I said I was looking for a squat rack, bench, and possibly some other stuff, but I'm taking my time because I want to get some good stuff. He asked if I remembered a guy named Curtis Lupo. He hadn't played in there in a year or so, but of course I remembered him. This guy was a HUGE. Real cool guy, too, I just hadn't seen him in a while. I know he and his family are a bunch of stuntmen and he has done a little hollywood work, including stunt work for Rocky V, The Scorpion King, and Wayne's world. I can't find a pic of him anywhere, but he's def about the size of The Rock. If you notice under the trivia section it says he owns a gym in Redding, Ca.

Which is exactly what my boss was telling me. He says he owns a gym, was telling me where its at and says they are really hurtin for business right now . So either A) I could go sign up for a membership there and workout out there or B) if they down size I could probably pick up some nice equipment for cheap.

So the location is apparently right down the street from me, but I haven't been able to find it on google anywhere. I know the general area, so I am going to go an try to find it today. Wish me luck.

Well. My workout today felt a little sloppy. Having said that, I am pretty pleased with the amount of weight that I lifted. I warmed up on a treadmill before my workout this time, but before i did that I experimented with some warm up stretching I saw in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByNz-gt-U3w

And then my work sets (yay for video!)

Squat:195x3x5

Press:110x3x5

Warm up for power cleans:
Hang Clean: 115x1x2

Power Clean:140x5x3
The Squats were filmed at the gym, and I drove home to finish the rest of the workout in my garage where I filmed the rest of it.

I didn't realize that the camera angle for the squats was so bad. Since I don't have my dad with my I had to try to find a spot. This video might even be worthless, the angle is so bad. The weight felt a little heavy, but I'm going to keep increasing this one. On the last set, a couple reps felt really good. I think I didn't lean forward quite so much and it cause the bar to take a more parallel path. Might be hard to tell on the video, but it felt much better.

My press felt pretty sloppy. I failed the very last rep, and I think I could have made it if I really focused. I find it easier to go through the sets fast, but I think it cost me a last rep not keeping my core tight enough. My wrists also look pretty bad at the bottom.

And I put my hang clean warm up form check in just to see if I am sucking at this. Not sure, really.

And as for power cleans, it kind of looks like I'm not generating enough power out of my hips/legs. It somehow looks like I'm not working at it very hard, even though I was working very hard. I was super super sweaty at the end, and the overall work out felt great.

haven't watched the entire squat vid, but it looks pretty sloppy. You need to keep your back TIGHT. I see some thoracic rounding. This compromises the force transfer from your hips and legs to the load. keep it tight and keep your chest up. You're drifting way forward out of the hole. I think your thoracic rounding is contributing to this.

OK just watched the final set and it looks a little better, but those problems are still present.

I also dislike the little jig you do taking the bar off the rack. It should just be 2-3 steps back and some minor feet adjustment.

press seems off balance. Try to get your wrists neutral, with the bar closer to the base of your palm rather than back in the fingers.

Press I keep my hands close to my shoulders to start. Remember to keep your core, glutes, lower back, hams etc all very tight before every rep.

+1

No feedback on the HC/PCs?

This is where I am the most clueless.

I'll def work on all the cues you guys have mentioned, I don't know why I just suck at this. However, as with almost everything else in my life, I always suck right away really bad at everything. But, as time progresses and I focus and put a lot of energy and effort to improving, I end up being quite good. I think it took me over 1 year to be a good and confident poker dealer, and a year after that to be one of the very best at my work. Hopefully I'll be a good, strong, confident lifter in less than a year.

I just received a nice little chunk of change, so hopefully on monday I will be able to get a very nice squat cage and bench, and then I won't have to go to the gym at all.

HCs-don't think so much about bending the knees initially as bringing your hips back. Some coaches refer to it as "looking out the window." Start with your knees slightly bent and then bring the hips slightly back.

PCs-your 2nd pull is happening too early, causing you to have a weird arc to the bar (and causing you to slightly fall forward). Let the bar clear your knees and get to mid-thigh before initiating the pull.

On both, try to keep the bar as close to the body as possible once you initiate the pull.

I've been feeling really crappy, with my throat just hurting a ton. By the end the day yesterday, I totally lost my voice. I'll blame that on my DL fail. My workout yesterday went like this:

Work sets:
Squat:200x3x5

Bench 160x3x5

DL: 295x1

My squat felt pretty good. I'm going to bring my video camera next time, I was way short on time yesterday.

I actually failed the very last rep on my last work set on bench. I didn't have a spotter so I learned how to fail a rep at the gym, not too hard. There wasn't anyone around to hear the plates fall, which was good.

DL- I'm going to partially blame the fail here on the fact that they were painting the weight room and it was causing me to get light headed.

But in actuality, I failed because I have been pushing myself too hard and trying to make too big of increases on the DL. Next time I DL I'm just going to take it slow and see what I can do. It might be time for a reset, if no other reason than to just help improve my form.

Alright. Took videos this time.
5 min of warm up cardio + all warm up sets and then:

Squat:
205x3x5

Press:
115x5/4/3

Power Cleans:
150x5x3

Squat: I'm having trouble remembering all the cues at the same time when I am at the bottom of a squat, but I feel like I'm improving little by little. The first angle isn't very good, but I got a better angle for the 2nd 2 work sets. I feel like at least the depth on the squats is pretty good.

Press: What a mess here. I worked on getting a closer grip and fixing the grip so the bar is in the right place on my hands. But apparently I forget this as I continue my reps and get back into old habbits. Bleh. I ordered some 10 oz washers but they haven't come yet. I was planning on only adding 2.5 pounds this time, I think that would have worked. I was also trying to breathe at the top of the rep instead of the bottom, but I think that messed me up because I wasn't used to it. I'll have to practice that some more.

Power Cleans: OMG WTF is wrong with my back this time??? I had it pretty straight last time and this time it looks super ugly and rounded. Holy crap that really sucks. I think the main reason for this is because I didn't have my hips low enough at the start(?). I fail boated the 2nd rep, but didn't fail any more. The weights look like they are moving super slowly, but they do look like they are going in a very nice and straight vertical path. I tried to let out a loud "YEAH BUDDAY!" on my last rep, but my voice/throat is so messed up up it came out like a whisper. Lulz.


Quick Question:

Am I doing this right? Just pluggin along increasing the weights just about every time and just sticking with these 5 lifts? I started to add some chin ups and static holds but I stopped. I don't think I'm supposed to really add anything, but I just want to make sure I'm going about this right. PP is on the way and I should have it in the next couple days