sry again. I get really bored at work so I get carried away writing. But finding this thread and reading other logs really has me motivated aorn.

anyways, here goes.

Stats

Age - 55
Height - 6'4"
Weight - ~200

History

I've lifted weights as long as I can remember. I used to do each bodypart twice a week. I feel like I lifted fairly heavy, or at least heavy for me. I've always been pretty consistent and I'd say my intensity has wavered from average to above average. I've never been able to gain much bulk. I've always done some kind of cardio. Played a ton of pickup basketball until my knees started bothering me. Been running the last 10 or so years - 3 times a week.

Problems

As stated before, it's super difficult for me to gain bulk. People don't say I'm thin, they say "skinny". I'm really long - long legs and long arms.

The killer is, though, I have a spare tire. It's not horrible but it's pretty much always been there. If I gain muscle bulk, the tire gets bigger, and vice versa. I hate it. I think the heaviest I've ever been was 212 but it was also the fattest I've ever been.

I have a really ****ed up back. Three degenerative discs. I used to squat a lot but haven't in a long time. I have deadlifted in the past but I really never did a lot of it because I'd screw my back up every time I started pushing it.

Oh, yeah, and I'm old. Longer recuperative time. Don't really make gains much.

Current workout

Monday - chest - I've had some shoulder issues the last few years so I've done mostly dumbells. Barbells were problematic. But thanks to some magical ART, my shoulder is much better so I've started back with barbells again. I'll document both

Flat

Dumbell - 8x35, 8x45, 8x55, 8x65, 2x5x85.
or
Barbell - 8x95, 8x135, 8x165, 4/5x195, 1x215/225, 6x185

Incline

Dumbell 8x45,8x55,2x5x70.
or
Barbell 8x135,5/6x155,1x175,5x155

decline

barbell 8x135,8x185,2x4/5x215/225

3x8x60/70 cable flys

abs - ~20 minutes of abs and lower back - crunches, machines, variety

Tuesday - run 4 1/2 miles

Wednesday - arms - I alternate every week between a "heavy" routine and a light routine

triceps

lying barbell behind the head extensions (not sure if I'm saying this right) - warmup 8x70, 5x100, 5x100 immediately followed by close grip press with that weight with no rest - to exhaustion, 5x90 immediately followed by close grip press to exhaustion
or
standing cable pushdown - straight bar 3 sets of 8x80

standing cable pushdown - straight bar, 5x90, superset 90 to exhaustion, 70 to exhaustion, 50 to exhaustion, superset 80 to exhaustion, 60 to exhaustion, 50 to exhaustion
or
not sure what to call this. It's a machine and it's sort of like dips only you sit in it and you don't dip - 3x8x130/140

biceps

standing barbell - warmup 8x65, 5x95, superset 5x95, then 75 to exhaustion then 65 to exhaustion, superset 5x85 then 65 to exhaustion then 55 to exhaustion
or
3x8x35 dumbell curls

cable curls - 5x130, superset 5x130 110 to exhaustion, 90 to exhaustion, superset 5x120 100 to exhaustion 80 to exhaustion
or
standing cable curls (with the fly equip) - 3x8x40/50

~20 minutes of core work - various planks, those things where you lie on your back and sort of ride a bicycle

thursday

run 4 1/2 miles

friday - back

wide grip lat pulldown - warmup - 6/7x190,5x205, 5x205
close grip pulldown - 2x5/6x205
seated rows - warmup 8x110, 2x6/7x160
t-bar row wide grip - 2x5x90
t-bar row close grip - 2x5x90
or
dumbell bent over row - 2x5x80

abs - ~20 minutes of abs and lower back - crunches, machines, variety

saturday

run 4 1/2 miles

sunday

rest

diet - I'm too lazy to count calories but here's normal

My work week diet is fairly consistent

breakfast - 4 hard boiled eggs
lunch - chicken breast and veggies
afternoon snack - protein power bar (or metrx bar)
dinner - varies - balanced meal (meat 2 veggies) or fajita salad or something
before bed snack - nuts and lunch meat - turkey or chicken

weekends I sometimes go a little crazy but I'm pretty good about not eating bread or being real bad. It's still sort of close to my weekday only some bigger and less lean meals mixed in.

alcohol - never drink during the week - drink moderately to too much on the weekends. Probably average 3/4 drinks friday, saturday, and sunday

goals

get rid of this gd spare tire. I hate it.
I'd like to bulk up a little but I know how hard this is so I'm not getting any unrealistic expectations
spice up my routine - seems stagnant

other stuff

I don't want to cut things like my bench out. I'm really scared if I cycle off of that and try to come back I'll never get it back. Getting old sucks.

I don't do any leg workout now. I plan on starting again (like TODAY). When I was doing it I generally did a lot of warmup on the leg press then did something like 3x5x650. Then 3 sets of leg extensions and 3 hamstring curls. Can't remember the weights but my quads are considerably stronger comparatively than my hamstrings.

I really want to give squats and maybe deadlift another shot. I'll never ever be able to push either one, but I feel like just doing the movements with really light weights is better than not doing them at all. I seriously doubt I could even hope to squat 135. I'm really gunshy when it comes to my back.

I will probably start riding my bike to work again. I used to on my mwf and will probably do again. It's about an hour ride round trip but not a difficult ride.

I work out/run after work. I've considered doing something before work as well (2 a days). I'm not sure how disciplined I will be to do this but I'd consider it.

I hate running. A lot. And my knees aren't gonna let me do it a whole lot longer. But I can't find anything that makes me feel the same. It takes at least double the time on a bike to make me feel like I've had the same workout. Maybe swimming but I suck at it. Also, running is super convenient. My gym is about 50 yards away from a really nice running trail. As stated, I run about 4 1/2 miles. I'm really spent after that. I doubt I could lift either before or after without something bad happening.

I tried a lot of supplements through the years. Only made me fatter. Not really a fan. I tried creatine and it was amazing. I really made significant gains on it. I'm considering trying again but at my age I just don't know.

where from here

Not sure. I'm fairly dedicated but I don't have a ton of time. My age is a factor. I can't bust out a 2 hour intense workout and recuperate. I get to a point where my body is just exhausted and it becomes counterproductive. I'd like to do some new things but I'm not sure what. tweaking what I'm doing is probably fine. Maybe less running? I've thought about doing shorter runs and doing some light weights on run days. Maybe do 2 days for each bodypart instead of one, but make it super light on my run days. I dunno.

All suggestions will be appreciated.

Read the FAQs if you haven't already, and by that I mean, buy Starting Strength.

Lifting weights for over 10 years, and you don't even squat or deadlift?

Read your post again, missed the degenerative discs bit the first time. But still... need more lower body lifts.

Lots of people squat with disc issues, depends on the severity. I would second HS's post. As an older lifter, you will likely not spend too much time on SS, or choose to lift 2x week.

Post plenty of form vids. There is a ridiculously high chance your technique is terrible.

OK, started doing legs. Just leg press, hamstring curl, and leg extensions. I just want some strength before I start squats. I'm super duper weak - ugh.

But yeah, I hear you. Any belt recommendations would be appreciated.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that a belt will help reduce/prevent back injuries. That is not its purpose. It is used to help you lift more weight.

Regarding getting some strength to squat, instead of training legs, maybe you should be training your back directly? Back hyper extensions, good mornings, superman drill, rows, etc.

BB,

heavy leg presses will generally be worse for your back than squats. I'd PM cha or go to the ss boards (http://startingstrength.com/resource...play.php?f=129) and search for disc issues there. I know it's been discussed a ton and that several guys with disc issues there do in fact squat and DL.

Given your goals, I'd look into the 5/3/1 program (http://www.jimwendler.com/). You can do 2 or 3 days as you like, and progress is slow.

If you have the financial means and you live near a city, I'd really try to locate a coach that could help you with form and programming - provided they have the requisite experience with guys like you. The SS boards coach locator could possibly help you (http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/coaching). The 70s big guys generally focus on the total package - mobility, programming, diet, rehabbing etc (http://70sbig.com/programming/consultation/), but you'd prob be lucky to find a live coach through them. They might point you in the right direction though. Gorilla4Sale (the 2+2 user) probably knows more guys in the industry than anyone else, if you're east coast he might be able to help you as well. In short, I think getting a good coach (i.e. the one in a million type) would be completely awesome for you.

I expect you know what it takes to lose the spare tire (a caloric deficit) and how it's not compatible with bulking. Choose one at first. I expect getting super jacked is not a goal of yours at your age anyway.

You're an ectomorph. The term could help you google around for your situation if you didn't already know it.

Back stuff came up in the beginner thread a couple days ago. You could find some reading links there and see what you can do for lower body exercises.

Good luck!

I haven't had time to go through all of this yet but a couple of comments.

First, many thanks for taking the time to suggest stuff. I'll look it all over.

I do some of those back excercises - extensions, rows, not sure what the superman drill is but I'll look. But I do try to do something for it. Even with that it's super weak from all the years of back spasms. One side pretty much takes over from the other.

Yeah, I've heard that about leg presses but I never once had an issue. It was always with squat. Deadlift even worse. But I'm listening to you about form so I'll make that top priority.

I'll check out the beginner thread.

I'll look into all that stuff soulman - I appreciate it.

This has me really excited. I've been doing the same thing for way too long. Time for a change.

Back extensions should definitely be avoided if you have disc issues. (Banded) jack knifes are way better. Basically, don't put your lumbar into flexion ever.

If you've never had issues with leg presses but had them with squats/DLs, it's almost a lock that you didn't use proper form, i.e. kept your lumbar extended and abs braced++.

Lots of guys here have learned proper form by themselves/with the aid of the forum, but given your preconditions and age I'm sure a coach would speed up progress by multiples and ensure compliance. Best of luck.

I just googled this and found nothing. Well, I found a guy doing presses but I'm not sure that is what you mean. What is this?

Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0jfHKwzXcg

Looks like his lumbar is flexing a bit much, here's another version without bands: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5JuIEty_-w

Note: never done them myself, but seen resident back expert cha59 recommend them. The point is, you don't do exercises where your lumbar is in flexion, especially if you have disc issues.

A couple of relevant threads from the SS boards:
http://startingstrength.com/resource...ad.php?t=24687

http://startingstrength.com/resource...ead.php?t=8816

This post seems relevant in particular: http://startingstrength.com/resource...636#post206636

I'm sure there are others as well.

Thanks. I started looking through the SS forums but there's a lot of stuff to sift through that isn't all that helpful. These are good. The last guy is sort of where I am backwise, but worse overall. This is really encouraging. There's hope!

I shot out some emails to the SS coaches in my area. I'll keep everyone posted.

I would blow up your whole program. It looks something like what a young bodybuilder might do. Its not for you.

I dont think you should do SS for lots of reasons I'm not going to go into detail about right now. I'll post some links below about where to learn form.

You need to squat, but you should not do back squats - not for a long time at least and maybe never. Start out by learning to goblet squat properly and do those every workout until you have very good form before moving to something like front squats.

You dont need to deadlift right away, but its something you will want to do once you get everything working properly.

Please stop doing anything that flexes your core - back extensions & crunches stuck out when I skimmed through this. Those are making your discs worse.

Also stop doing leg presses. You might not feel it when you’re doing it, but those put shear force on your lumbar spine – its also contributing to your disc issues.

Leg curls and leg extensions are a total waste of time.

Learn about SMR & do that every day. Read this:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/85...dback-1209610/

Learn about mobility exercises and do that before every workout. Assess & Correct is the gold standard for this. If you’re wondering about programming them, see the early part of my log.
http://www.assessandcorrect.com/

Core - You’re nowhere near ready to do banded jackknifes yet. That’s a very advanced exercise.

For core stuff, you’ll want to start with front and side planks and bird dogs (aka supermans). Do all these for 10 – 15 second reps at the most, rest 15 seconds and do 5 sets at a time to start. Go 5 sets, rest or do another exercise, then do 4 sets, etc. down to one set, so you’ll do 15 sets a day of bird dogs and front planks and side planks. The focus should be on keeping your core as tight/solid as possible. Picture it as a block of concrete. Do that with every exercise you do. Stop doing "ab work" and do this right.

If you want to spend a few bucks and really learn a lot about doing core work, buy access to this:
http://robertsontrainingsystems.com/core-fitness/

A strong core is the biggest key to getting your low back healthy and keeping it that way.

Learn how to bench press correctly if you’re going to bench. Watch this whole series before you bench at all anymore: http://articles.elitefts.com/feature...e-series-here/
I recommend watching it again in a week or two too. And again in a month or two after that. You’ll pick up new things every time you watch.

Stop doing so much volume and so many different angles on pressing for now – you don’t need all that. Just pick one press per workout and move on. You don’t need 345874 angles and a bazillion reps every workout.

If your shoulders are bothering you, dont bench with a straight bar - I could write a book on fixing shoulder problems. I already am writing too much here. Read my log or ask some specific questions if you need more info.

Read this about squatting:
http://robertsontrainingsystems.com/blog/squat/

When you’re ready to start deadlifting, read this:
http://robertsontrainingsystems.com/blog/deadlift/



I’d suggest programming something like this:

Every workout for now, do this:
-SMR
-Mobility exercises
-Goblet squats
-Pick and alternate other stuff like pressing & pulling & maybe some accessory movements if you want – change it up every other workout or maybe every third workout
-Core stuff

If you really want to learn about fixing your back problems, buy Stuarts McGill’s books and read them cover to cover starting with Low Back Disorders – you need to read that first to have a better understanding of the second book – Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance.
http://www.backfitpro.com/books.php
Dr McGill is the foremost spine biomechanist in the world. These books are a must read for any medical professional who treats patients with back problems or anyone with a back problem who is motivated to do everything they can to make it better.

Read my log from ~6/1/2011 forward to see how I recovered from a severe herniated disc injury (unable to walk without crutches for five weeks, then deadlifted a PR 518 lbs at a powerlifting meet a year later).

This is a lot to digest so I'll get back to it later but I will comment on a few things.

First of all, there seems to be a differing opinion on squats. Some are saying they can be done safely. You are suggesting to be careful - maybe not do them at all. Hopefully others will chime in.

I do core work. I do side planks, front planks and that superman thing. Not exactly what you suggest, though. I do about 60 seconds each with side and front planks - 3 sets. I do sets of 20 on superman, holding for 5 seconds. These have helped my back tremendously. Since I started doing the planks I've had almost no issues.

I keep hearing that about leg presses but I did them for years and never had one incident. I dunno.

I'm sure I can always improve, but I feel like my bench form is fine. The shoulder stuff it turns out had nothing to do with lifting weights. It was how I sat at my computer at work. It's almost not an issue any more.

But, I hear you about the bench volume/angles. I've been thinking that for a while. But, I just got into a routine.

Anyways, I appreciate the input and I'll look into all of this.


Thanks.

Not sure how much squatting/deadlifting and degenerative discs relate to squatting/deadlifting and herniated discs but I've been squatting pretty successfully for a while now after I herniated a lumbar disc. Now I always have to make sure my form is very very solid because back injuries do suck a lot, but I haven't had injuries since then related to the disc.

Reread what I wrote. I said you should do goblet squats every workout until you're good at them before moving on to other types of squatting.

Squatting with a barbell on your back is not good while your back is an issue.

very good - the 60 seconds at a time isnt optimal, but its not bad or anything. You're ready to move on to more challenging stuff.

Just because you havent had an incident that was directly related to leg presses doesnt mean they havent been wearing your discs out.

As long as you feel no pain when you bench, have at it imo. If the shoulders bother you, ease off or switch to DBs for a while.

Back squatting puts more sheer force on your spine than front squatting (and some other types of squats) because your back has to be at an angle when you hold a barbell on it. When you front squat or goblet squat or Zercher squat your back is more vertical, which is a lot easier on the spine.

fwiw, I didnt do any back squatting while I was rehabbing, but I do it frequently now that my back is no longer an issue. Whether you or OP or anyone should back squat or not is an individual thing. No one ever needs to do back squats if they dont have goals that include being strong at back squatting.

I'm a powerlifter, so back squatting heavy weight is a goal of mine.

G4S on the other hand, did no back squats at all for a long time and he got pretty strong doing front squats. I'm pretty sure the reason he stopped back squatting was because it was hard on his low back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiLWGaBZdAs

as far as deadlifting goes, I think OP said he had back issues when he tries to DL now. If that's the case, he should stop DLing for now & fix his back first, then when he's ready, fix his DL form so that he can DL without it hurting his back.

I'd recommend reading Cha's log. At some point all of it probably.

And be patient.....

lol, I googled goblet squat

Yeah, do that, doubt trying to muscle around some atlas-type stones will screw up your back.

Tbf, looks like that's on page 2 at least of images. Having that image come up at all is just kinda mean imo, .

READ THE LINK ON SQUATTING I POSTED. THAT'S ALL YOU NEED.

If really you want more detail on just the goblet squat, here: http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...let_squats_101

Yeah, I was just joking. I just wanted to see a picture of it because I had never hear of it. I'll read everything.

I started reading your log. You have some of the same issues as me only more. But you are much stronger than I am. It's very interesting and I'll read it all eventually.

Just want to mention that I've done some smr stuff on problem areas. I got art on my shoulder which turned out to be magical. I use the lacrosse ball on it. I also roll my calves because I've had issues running. But, yeah I'm a convert to smr. I just haven't incorporated an overall routine because I tend not to worry about stuff that doesn't hurt.

OP, you seem to have a good attitude and you're getting good advice. I tend to favor cha's advice, but if you work hard you can then test and see what works for you and you should succeed (again, if you put in the work). gl.