Congrats Emoken, best of luck!

Can you clarify your thoughts on the barbell bench? You seem rustled when I referred to it as a prehab exercise which it clearly is for me, but here it seems you would rather exclude it permanently. Reason why? Injury? Lift for n00bs? etc?

I don't remember this rustling. In my case it's just really aggravates the area where my pec and bicep meet, the proximal bicep tendon. It's bothered me since about 2011 just after I did my first 225lbsx5x3. I messed around with a lot of stuff over the years trying to fix it. I think it's a great exercise and if I cut the bottom 25-33% of the ROM I'm sure I could still do it; perhaps a spoto press would suit me. If you or anyone else can do it, definitely go for it, it's a great exercise and you won't find an IFBB men's open pro who can't bench 200kg+ and probably most oly pros are benching 1.5xbw or significantly more.

Some of the Dr. Andrew Lock drills combined with simply having stronger horizontal pulling musculature (scap retraction) and mechanics have measurably improved pain in the area I used to experience from other pressing variations and vertical pulling. Basically I just had really severe scap winging on that side and it's gotten a lot better from just strengthening the area. I may not discount flat benching permanently as I've made a lot of progress and had less pain in the area over the course of the past year; maybe the answer is very rippetoeist and I just need really ****ing strong scap retraction first.

For now, given my short term goals, I need to not worry about it and focus on staying injury free at all costs. If I can just get in and be consistent with the weights and don't take time off from injury or illness; that's probably more than enough to maintain the muscle I have. Main thing is that I need to be shredded enough.

Deadlift: 160kgx5x2, 160kgx11 big pr up from doing 160kgx12 without any sets before last month
NG chins: 11, 6, 5
BB rows: 70kgx10,7,6
Chest supported db rows: 14kgx10,8,8 mastered the set up on this, the key is to flare elbows and holy **** the lat activation is strong
Single arm cable rows: 8x2

DB spider curls: 10kgx3 sets fail
DB hammer curls: 14kgx8 each side

On the topic of bottlenecks, should I really be emphasizing the deadlift this much? after a brutal amrap like that I'm out of comission for 15 minutes and it still severely cuts into performance on later exercise. Although I'm quite far from all time prs, I think my lower back, glutes, and hamstrings are relatively more developed than upper back. Maybe it'd make more sense to do something like 160kgx5x3 instead and be able to use more weight/less rest on pullups, rows, csrs, cable rows and curls...

What do you guys think? Should I drop the DL amraps? Although I've never actually been injured DLing, maybe I should cut the AMRAPs to reduce potential for injury and give more focus to the upper body part of back workouts. OTOH DL amraps twice a month are quite fun and rewarding to make progress on and of course it'll still hit the lats, whereas week to week 2.5kg or 2 rep prs on barbell rows are like who cares whatever.

I agree with all that and it seems totally reasonable. For most people who Olytard its a sometimes to rare movement for obvious reasons, but shockingly being able to put 2x+ BW overhead and press >BW generally means being able to bench a reasonable amount of BW!

I'd advise cutting depth. Full ROM is whatever for physique and injury history.

Obv don't DL that much. But you know this and just want someone to point out that aggressively focusing on something that is already out of balance is kinda dumb. Maybe try rack pulls or something if you really wanna pull or snatch grip from box or whatever. Granted no idea about pageants, but is this type of stuff remotely common? (AMRAP DL sets) What RPE is your DL set? If its 8ish, seems like a definite problem.

full 10/10 on the last set, tried to pull the 12th and couldn't. Yeah, I am not getting ready for a pling competition and this is just extra CNS stress. Definitely still going to dl and even dl from the floor, but keeping it lighter so I can go full blast on pullups+rows where I'm building most of the upper body muscle.

I'm still going to DL, just only do lower reps so I'm not out of gas coming into the other exercises. Going to add a 4th day but keep exercises/days the same, just 4 day 3 way rotation which historically produced my best gains. I'm going to give it at least another 1-3 weeks to insure elbows are in great shape before adding a day. Tried my "new" legday today. It's gay, I'd really rather squat but just can't.

Leg extensions: somethingx20x5
Leg press 3ppsx20, 2ppsx20x4 1 min rests
KB goblet: 24kgx20x5 couldn't get the right feel for this
Static lunge: 10kg each sidex10x3
Hyperextensions: bwx10x5
NG pullups: bwx8,8,5

Man leg press feels like all hamstrings and glutes, barely any quads. Probably a good thing for getting my dl #s I apparently care so much about up.

Have you tried using a trap bar for the deadlifts instead?

While its not of course an exact one for one in terms of muscles (trap bar has more of a squat type pattern then strict hinge), for someone struggling with conventional for whatever reason, its recommended.

Usually this means your feet are "too high", no?

rofl @ finding a trap bar in china. I can't even find a hack squat machine or a leg curl outside of a gym that's routinely around 95 degree farenheit and super humid. I'm also not exactly struggling with conventional, I've done 455x9 @194 at my peak and 455x7 about 18 months ago @ 210. I'm still just working with "leftover strength" from a back injury that put me out of dling for a little over a year compounded with a knee injury that put me back a few more months; I've only been doing the exercise consistently for like ~6-8 weeks now.

Trap bar dl would also be the worst exercise ever for an already lower body dominant guy prepping for a bodybuilding show and having problems with VMO pain and a history of knee pain.

As far as quads I'm not so worried, single leg static lunges work great. And I suspect I'll be back to squatting soonish.

Glgl

I felt like every gym I went to had a leg curl machine. Almost never saw trap bar or hack squat machine though.

Hyperextensions are a clearly superior exercise because they hit the whole p-chain and are significantly harder, however I gotta sit down for 10 minutes afterword because my lower back gets so pumped. Almost everyone who does hypers does them with hands out in front; put them behind your head and put the pad really low to where the pad is just above your knees. You can make that standard 45 degree hyper really hard this way, almost as good as a real GHD.

Push

Incline bb: 87.5kgx10 (2 reps up from last time), 70kgx10,6
Flat DB: 36 and a 38 (oops)x11, 36kgsx7
Close pushups: bwx9,6
Side raises (leaning away and cable between the legs): lightest weight on the stackx 4 sets suuchh a good pump, perfect variation. Makes it so much harder than behind or in front for some reason

Cable rope kickbacks: 4 sets

Very pleased with today. Tomorrow night expecting an onfocused bull****tery workout because I'm going to be helping out a chinese friend in the gym learn how to dl. But it's okay because i'm not DLing heavy so by definition it's kind of an easier ****-off workout.

Hypers with the barbell, or a kettlebell.

When you do the lateral raises do you have the cable run behind or in front of the leg on the workside?

Starts around 8:50 for a demo. I used to do it behind which works well. In front side raises are terrible. I just started doing them like the way in the video a week ago; it makes the exercise much much harder and you feel it far more in the side delt, less in rear delts/traps.

On a side note, the video author is one of the few guys who seems to apply the scientific literature to bodybuilding and explain it using colloquial language really well. Too bad he's an actual 5'4 dwarf, but definitely a solid guy and true natty. His videos can be quite dry and boring, but they are informative. I'm simply too beat up to follow his programming because many of his exercises would rape my existing injuries.

@nuc500
Neither are necessary; if you do them at a slow and controlled pace after a leg or dl workout you won't need to add anything. I've used a 5-10kg plate in the past. Maybe when I'm back in the mid 400lbs dls I might bring back a 5-10kg plate.

NG pullups: bwx12,7,7
Barbell rows: 80kgx10,7,5
DB CSR: 14kgsx25,9,8
Singel arm cable rows: 30kgx11,8 each side
DB hammer curls: 14kgx3 sets failure forgot reps, maybe ~20ish first set.

Even just not taking a day off between push and pull workouts and the elbow pain immediately returns, this time on the left side. That tells me I need to stay with 3 days a week plan for some more time. I'd really like to add that 4th day, but alas I'm making fantastic gains, losing fat while scale is staying the same, getting a lot stronger quickly, not getting injured, and looking more vascular. So if it ain't broke...

It's exercise addiction. This is basically ExpectedV Syndrome, first observed in HF OG REALBUSTO. But REALBUSTO actually trained hard and with HEART. Still, in EV's case with no heart/stupid lifts or REALB's case with too much WIM and almost all real man lifts done at stupidly high %s, the result is the same, if you do too much, you get 0 facking gains. RealB perfect case study because he experienced the same thing AAS or not. Oh, also I want to go to the gym often to look at hot 20-40 year old busty Chinese in yoga pants and sports bras.

I need to accept the fact that while my CNS and muscles can easily recover from this, my connective tissue and joints are simply far more fragile than the typical 29 year old lifters.



Helping my friend went fine, didn't feel too distracted.

Hey thanks. I tried that lateral raise variation today and you are not kidding. It feels like it isolates the middle way more.

Re-exercise addiction-I love going to the gym because I like being there (for the reasons you stated plus it is a place where I have accomplished something) and that is one of the reasons I talk myself out of changing my program. I don’t know if I would get better gains with less frequency, or a lower volume split/program, but I don’t really want to go less or be there less time when I do go. I mean we are past the point of doing this for health, but we still kinda pretend that’s the main driver. That being the case, maybe one of the goals is feeding that addiction, looking at gym babes, getting admiration for your hard work from people who get it. Is more of that worth giving up the very pinnacle of what you can achieve in mass, strength etc? Don’t know.

ETA: like I see the dudes who are consistent as the sunrise for years but are not getting any better in any way. The guys who go and sit on their phones, chat too much, no intensity, terrible form etc, but there year after year and never change ****. I may not be as different as I thought, just maybe reaching contentment at a different level.

http://npcnewsonline.com/powerbuildi...the-gym/63930/

I posted this in lc thread a while back. Although Stan recommends a completely different ultra high frequency high rep pump work approach when nearing a bodybuilding contest, for general strength and hypertrophy I think you can't really go wrong with these guidelines.

I think the problem is a lot of us can feel when our muscles are recovered and want to go train again; the problem is you can't really "feel" when your connective tissue is recovered and at least when you're less experienced, you don't know when your CNS is fully recovered either. Granted, you can kinda get a feel and pick up signs/tells as you get deeper into the iron game on CNS recovery.

Cardio is really ****ing boring, but I think if/when you want to go to the gym just to get something done, be in your comfortable place, and stare at C cup fake breasts in a sports bra, hitting the bike for ~45 minutes is never going to interfere with your weight training and is likely to even benefit recovery. Does your gym have a prowler/sled, tires, swimming pool, or kettlebells? Also a great option if you just want to be there; just leave the heavy lifting out.

Lots of dudes have gotten reaaallyyy ****ing strong training 2-3x/wk. When you're starting or even intermediate/advanced but non-elite, strength is just the most important thing. I can understand that Stan might switch to a twice a day 6 days per week kind of thing when in prep for a bodybuilding show because he's simply already strong. Guys like EV want to skip straight to that without considering the lifestyle factors or the things that came before the 6 days per week push/pull/legs twice a day sets of 15-20 on the clock. Before that, it was 700x5 deadlifts and 450x5 incline benches.

Lastly, even naturals in a sport that benefits from technique refinement and just doing the movements really frequently people greatly overestimate their recovery abilities and end up training too much.

https://owlsheets.blogspot.com/2014/...woodhouse.html

You can see Koing Chea's lifts still today on youtube; he made incredibly strides switching to only twice a week.

Part of it is also an identity things; especially for those kind of intermediate/advanced guys or young guys who haven't quite figured themselves yet and are latching onto things (definitely described me and RealB in early 20s), especially after they start AAS. You feel like this is part of who you are and it frankly feels weird and wrong to do this thing infrequently. People are constantly either asking or suggesting that I live in the gym and workout all the time; it feels weird to answer "nah I go 3 days a week for about an hour. Mostly I just get big, strong, and lean by sitting at home eating copious amounts of steak and bell peppers" (and injecting 500-750mg/wk of testosterone but I leave that part out)

Legs:

Leg Extensions: lightx20x5
Leg press 3ppsx20, 2.5ppsx20, 2ppsx20x4 45-90 sec rests
Static Lunge: 10kg each handx10x3
Hyperextensions: bwx10x5
NG chins: bwx8,5,4x5 in about 10 minutes

Gotta cut the leg extensions. They make my quad tendons and VMO and basically the whole area above the knee feel fantastic... and make the area below the knee on the previously injured side feel worse when it was recently feeling totally pain free from even the heaviest squat workouts. Will try to get some kind of belt squat setup. We have a belt to add weight but somebody lost the ****ing chain lmao.

Definitely felt the leg press more in quads this time. Low rest time helped with that.

I'm keeping in the amrap DLs for better or worse. It's going to be fine because I can do chins on the other 2 days so I have less fear of it interfering with chins on my back workout day.

No idea when/if I will reintroduce back squats. I think I should really hold off a long while, especially if I can get a good high rep (20s) hip belt squat progression going. I've done it before as a normal KB squat and loved it but need to be able to load it heavier. Basically feels like a normal squat but easier on the knees and without much need for stabilization but still works the fack out of quads.

I had a mediocre session.

Incline BB: 87.5kgx10+1 cheat rep with hips in the air, 70kgx11+1 cheat rep, 70x7
Flat db: 38kgx10,5
Close pushups: bwx9,5
Chest machine press: lightx13,7

Cable side raises: first set 30 reps, 2 more sets to fail
Incline reverse flies: 4kgx10,10,15

Cable kickbacks: 3 sets

Cardio: 20 mins bike light

+2 reps on the first set last week, +0 but +1 on each subsequent set this week. Flat weight up reps down. Not great. I'm going to hit incline dbs next week and I think I'll definitely hit a top set PR on incline BB 2 weeks from now.

bw 93.3kg

Back

DL: 170kgx2x4, 170kgx9
BB rows: 70kgx10,12,10 up 2.5kg, good
Pulldowns: 95-135lbsx10x4
DB CSR: 16kgx19,8,6
Single arm cable rows: 13,8

Hammer curls: 16kgx3 sets fail, first one was like 23?
Single arm cable curls: 14kgx12 each side


Moving to the 4 day push/pull/legs split. My big issue before was elbow pain after the pressing day on chins. So I just took out the chins and focus on barbell rows which are a bit more important anyway. I'm converting my DLs to the 5thSet for powerlifting progression because it's so well laid out and I have historically recovered from sq/dl very poorly compared to other lifters. DL every 10 days instead of every 9 but other than that the same. I was not at all gassed and didn't need to rest more than 5 minutes after my amrap. I am very interested in running a variant of this program, but the pressing frequency is a bit too high for my elbow; with the 4 day DC split I'll only have a 2nd pressing day every 3rd week.

Thinking of contacting the author of the book for coaching/advice on how to modify the program for bodybuilding; I'm guessing his answer will be to change bench to incline, follow the main lift progressions as written, and tailor accessories for hypertrophy.

I taped my deadlifts. They are fixed and I think look good or at least far better than before. I've been working on them for a long time and changed my rows (also videoed) such that I've got a hard isometric pause in the position I was struggling with off the floor with hips going up too fast. Finally figured out how to engage my glutes and hamstrings getting the bar off the floor instead of just muscling it up with erectors.

Lastly I taped some posing; I'm way ahead of schedule for 15 weeks out. I think I could be ready in 7-8 weeks. The steak, veggies, eggs, fruit, and rice around workouts diet is great; stronger, visually leaner, and bw barely going down.

Can you link to your programming again? I missed it the first time around.

Glad to hear things are going so well, though.

Nudes plz

It's going to be something like this. Basically an intermediate 3 way split DC training kind of thing but a little less frantic exercise rotation and more pulling volume.

Push 1:
Incline BB 3 sets fail
Flat DB 2 sets fail
Close pushups 2 sets fail
Triceps+shoulders pump work

Pull 1:
DL 80%x2x4, 80% amrap
BB Row 3 submax
Vertical Pull 3-4 submax
DB CSR 3 sets fail
Single arm cable row 2 sets fail
Hammer curl 3 sets fail

Legs 1 :
Leg press
static lunge
hyperxtensions
Whatever else

Push 2:
DB incline 3 sets
Flat DB 2 sets
Close pushups: 2 sets
Triceps+shoulders pump

Pull 2
Rows
Chins (I don't know which ones will be done first)
DB CSR
Single arm cable row
Curl variation

Legs 2:
Squat when I'm back to it, submax sets across maybe 3 sets of 8
Static lunge
hyperextensions

Mo: push
Tu: pull
We off
Thu: legs
Fri: push

Next mo: Pull
Tu: Legs
We Off
Thu: Push
.... etc

So everything is hit every 4 days and then every 6 days, averaging twice every 10 days. Push workouts about 7 sets of "hard" lifts ~45 minutes, pull workouts without DLs around 60 minutes, dl workouts around 80 minutes. Very low volume.

Later as my VMO heals I'll do a moderate squat workout every 10 days. On the other leg day, I'll still squat, but much lighter and as a 2nd exercise after either hip belt squats or leg press (hoping for hip belt squats 15-20s).

Even though I'm sure they wouldn't like DC training as written, listening to the Barbell Medicine bros 3 part podcast on programming kinda cleared up a LOT of things for me. I can kinda see the rationale for rotating exercises systematically and semi-frequently from both an injury prevention and more consistent progression standpoint. None of their clients or posters are enhanced bodybuilders of course.

I also really like the 5th set for powerlifting program and want to do that once my elbows feel good, with some adjustments for bbing. Swede Burns sounds/looks/writes a bit ******edly, but the program in the book seems very well designed, yet simple. It's like he's writing for us guys approaching/beyond 30s who get injured easily; our joints and tendons just can't recover from a lot of the higher volume programs or high frequency squatting and dling programs like BB medicine bros would probably want us doing. And his clients seem to do well.

Nowadays when I look at a program I just think: Will this allow me to remain injury free? IDGAF about progressing "fast", just progressing slowly but never getting injured sounds absolutely ideal even if I'm giving up a few possible gains, ere on the side of conservatism.

I probably need to consider injury prevention a bit more than I do right now, but happily being weak seems to have mitigated some of the risk.

Any link to a 5th Set program outline? First I've heard of it.

Info is surprisingly scarce via a simple google search, but the rundown is like this: 3 days per week but 4 day rotation, bench, squat, deadlift, secondary bench. On main lifts, you do 4 doubles and then an amrap set with 80%, adding 5lbs per week for 6 weeks until a deload. You do the AMRAPs for only one of squat or deadlift; for the other you do submaximal sets across with an emphasis on speed and technique (he starts at 3x5 @70%, in my case maybe 8x3@60%). On the squat day you do typical lower body accessories, on both bench days you do both upper pushing accessories and upper pulling accessories, on the deadlift day you do a mix of upper body pulling and lower body pulling accessories. So you train the sq/dl for a big AMRAP set every 9 days and train your main bench every 9 days plus a secondary bench (incline, close grip, floor press, something very mechanically similar) in between the main bench sets. The secondary bench does not follow the main lift progression; emphasis is on hypertrophy/endurance. He even recommends stuff like 2 sets of 25 with incline DBs!

Got invited to audition for a commercial for my gym; I'm guessing they'll choose someone more anglo looking or with better chinese language skills (I doubt there is any speaking, but to be more easily directed). But they frankly may not find a very IEL dude fitting those characteristics and I'm in.