hi Cha,

So you had lumbar disc herniation issues as well? I read some of your log and it seems like when you re-started your training, although you were very out of shape, I am assuming you still had a solid base of muscles?

I am basically skinny fat and have been bulking for about 4 months. Progress is good except for the fact that I have to avoid lower back bending exercises like RDL, DL, Bent over Rows. I however do squats and every 3-4 weeks I pull up with lower back spasms generally occurring on the left side just above the hips. I have had disc herniation in L5/S1 since last 5 years but I have not got pain down my legs or anything like that since a couple of years. In fact I was getting no back spasms or sciatic radiating pain since over a year before constant (every 3-4 week) flare ups started happening when I started lifting.

The pain is very localized and after the spasm happens my core locks down and I am laterally bent to my left side. As soon as Mckenzie stretches become tolerable I start with them (they help a ton) and some other stretching exercises for hams and twisting and glute abductions etc.

Finally, my entire core is pretty weak but even when I am feeling fine there is always a tightness in my lower back on the left side exactly where the Quadratus Lumborum muscle is supposed to be. I can feel the tightness is deep within and very close to the actual spine and going up towards the lower posterior ribs. I do foam rolling and a QL stretch but I can really feel the pain and tightness when doing them. I feel really good after hamstring stretch as well but I do the one where you prop your leg on a table and bend forward with the knee straight and that sometimes causes a bit of a micro spasm in my lower back left side.

My goal is to add strength so that this weak back becomes stronger but of course I want overall strength and not just lower back. Also, I have a job where I have to sit a lot although recently I have been very conscious of my posture and duration of sitting.

What should I do? PTs like Tim Keeley suggest that someone with disc herniation should never do any axial loading of spine above their body weight.

I am 6'1", 86kg 22% bf.

As far as I have been told my form is pretty good in all these lifts:

S: 82.5kg
O: 45kg
B: 72.5

I don't really do DLs or Bent over Rows and do mostly DB pullovers, seated machine rows, seated machine rear flys and lat pulldowns for my back. Basically anything where my lower back is supported.

yeah, I lifted in the past, but that's not the point of why you were directed here. Start reading after 6/1/2011. That's when I injured my back severely, and you can see what I did in the months afterwards to make it stronger than it ever was before.

I'm stopping you there because you're doing something wrong if you're bending your back while doing any of the exercises you mention above, or any others for that matter. Anything you do - lifting or whatever else you do in daily life, you dont want to bend your lower back at all. Instead, hinge at the hips.

And after reading the stuff you wrote below here, I do not understand why you're trying to bulk. Get your back healthy before proceeding.

It sounds like you might have more back issues than just that herniated disc.

You need to start by making your core strong using exercises that dont allow your lower back to bend, twist or flex in any direction. Buy Stuart McGill's books, and start reading Low Back Disorders cover to cover. Only after you're done with that, read Ultimate Back.

Please stop trying to stretch your QL. You might be causing more disc damage.

Be careful when you stretch your hamstrings not to let your back round at all. As a matter of fact, instead of stretching your hamstrings, start doing my "self ART on the hamstrings" trick instead. That is safer and far more effective than just stretching.

I am not familiar with him, and I'm not entirely sure what he means by axial loading. I dont know if he's legitimate or not.

I do know that you do not want your lower back to move at all when your spine is loaded. When you lift anything, anytime (not just when you're working out), you want your rib cage locked solid to your pelvis. Picture your core like its a block of granite. Dont ever let it move when you are under load.

I'd be careful with any seated exercises as you can put shear force on your spine easily when you do those.

Start with reading my log from 6/1/2011 and see what I did the next several months. Start reading Low Back Disorders.

For exercises, learn good form for doing front and side planks and bird dogs. Do those daily. Do 5 - 10 second holds. There's no need to do it longer than that. Just use good form. If they get easy with good form, squeeze hard and do lots of reps rather than longer reps. Stop doing anything that causes pain. You need to get your core strong, and this is probably the best way to start.

Cha - I believe Paul Carter of LRB is a proponent of pretty wide grip LBBS. You've probably seen the video he posted about it, but here is the link in case: http://www.lift-run-bang.com/2012/06...-hand-and.html I am not sure if this addresses your problem though.

Thanks - that's pretty good. I was looking for something like that. I havent seen a whole lot of strong opinions one way or the other on the subject, aside from something I read from Mike Robertson that said wide grip is hard on your shoulders. I didnt feel anything bar in my shoulders during or after using a wide grip, so if I can figure out a way to make that work in my rack with my bar without smashing my hands, I'm probably going to keep doing them that way.

Re: back problems

That's actually a substantial amount of information to chew on, with the book and your log. I will get on it. Thanks for your advice on where I should start as well. I am sure I will have a couple more questions for you at some point.
I am new to this section and I am sure I will be following

7/2

I decided to DL tonight instead of tomorrow. I felt recovered well enough from squatting the other day, plus this will give me an additional day to recover from heavy DLs before the meet. Plus I'll bench heavy tomorrow, rather than Friday, and that will give me two extra days to recover from the heavy benching before the meet. Oh, all that, plus I was excited to try out my new Texas DL bar.

DL
237x5x3, 329x4, 379x3, 436x2x4, 486x2, 542x1 (PR + 10)
That was pretty hard. The only thing I think I can do better than today prior to the meet is have more food in me. I ate lunch ~1pm and pulled this ~8:30, so maybe I'll be stronger if I eat before & during the meet like I did at the last one.

trap bar DL
505x8
That was exhausting. lolcardio.

Nice PR!

Awesome

hey Cha,

I went through a lot of your log since your injury and have read some of the book as well. I am currently preparing a regimen similar to yours when you were able to do planks and other holds. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a Reverse Hyper machine. Is there any household equipment or a variation for that exercise? It looks really good.

Can you also guide me as to which one of the two options I should follow for the immediate future:

A)
I have about 8kg of fat I need to lose. I also added about 6kg of muscle in the last 4-5 months (despite frequent stoppages due to low back flare ups). My goal was to bulk up till october and then go on a cut but since my core needs strengthening I could take the next 3-4 months doing that strengthening whilst cutting my fat using a combo of cardio (i have never felt any back problems running) and a free weight routine that is low in volume and frequency (ex - a full body work out 2x weekly with cardio on off days) with weights 10% below what I currently do and higher rep ranges. Also would substitute squats and RDLs for something more conservative. Diet: 500kcals below maintenance.

OR

B)
I basically had one exercise that was causing flare ups - Back Squats. I have never felt any excessive strain on the back from any other exercises. I would add a regimen similar to yours for my core and continue bulking with a variation for the back squat and RDL with a heavy 5x5 3 day split routine and perhaps gradually re-introduce squats, rdls, dl, BoRs. Diet : 10%-20% above maintenance.

What do you reckon?

Solid PR! You should def eat something closer to the meet, 7.5 hours between eating and lifting is way too much.

Thanks!

Thanks!

Thanks, yeah. Sometimes I'll have a protein shake with fruit shortly before I lift. I didnt do that yesterday. I think that lift might have gone better if I had done that.

I'm going to suggest you take the dieting questions to the experts in the beginner's thread. I could say some things about that, but I dont know as much as those guys do.

You dont need a reverse hyper. Starting out, bird dogs should be fine. When those are very easy, you could start adding ankles weights.

Definitely avoid back squats & RDLs if they bother your back. Notice when I began squatting after the injury, I started with air squats to a high box (~20"), then did very light goblet squats, then eventually went to front squats. If you get good at those and dont intend to do any powerlifting, you dont need to back squats anymore.

cool! so many thanks man. I don't intend to do any powerlifting but I really want big and powerful glutes and that's why after troubles with rdls, dls and squats I stuck with back squats as a last ditch effort. I am assuming bird dogs and and bridges are not enough to grow glutes so what, in your opinion, should I do for glute strength and size? Once I manage to get on to doing front squats, will they be enough? Any other exercises? Barbell lunges?

Get your back well & core strong first. Bird dogs & weighted bird dogs will help with glutes a little. One your back is feeling well, then worry about the glutes. At that point you might want to do block pulls or rack pulls and other stuff that will work the posterior chain harder. There are lots of ways to work the glutes, but you need to start slow and protect your back first.

Nice pull cha!!!

Thanks!

55x15, 105x10x2, 146x5, 196x3, 237x3, 267x1, 297x1, 317x1 (paused), 297x3x3 (touch & go)

hammer curls
35x10, 40x10x2

floor press
221x6x3

cable rows
200x20x3

face pulls
115x15x2

I think I'm going to open at 314.

Lol at asking Cha59 for diet advice. I had to give that up a long time ago. "Eat food, get strong" is his advice. It's of course great advice...but, I mean, leaves a lot of specifics to TBD.

Asking Cha59 for advice on anything having to do with the low back is elite. Keep doing that imo.

Also, how to wiggle your fingers before pulling a PR DL. Not sure that was part of the routine in the past. Imo you can wiggle them some more for the meet and maybe add another 5 lbs.



Really nice pull though: thick, solid, tight.

How did 317x1 paused feel?

Thanks!

317 felt, um, not to difficult, but not fast. I will get 314 up for sure, barring injury. I think I'm a solid favorite to get 325 (but I thought that at the last meet too ). I don't know beyond that.

Looking back at the last meet, I'm pretty sure the brachioradialis/radial nerve pain caused by the squats affected my bench press. I plan to try the wide grip squats, so my arms shouldn't be affected by that again, assuming all goes according to plan.

Looking ahead, there's going to be a USAPL meet in September, conveniently right between the USPA nationals next week and the IPL worlds in November. Before I found out about that, I was planning to train on a 16 week plan. I might want to do the USAPL meet in between. I'm undecided right now.

The reason I was thinking about that is because my bench has basically stalled for ~ a year now, and it has actually regressed from last winter when I benched 345. I want to improve my bench. I know I'm a little bit limited by relatively long arms, but I still have lots of room for improvement. I was thinking back to when I made good gains a year & a half ago, and I think I might have been doing OHPs then. I basically stopped those to protect my neck, but maybe I should stick to very light OHPs as assistance work for the bench.

Regarding this - eat lots of protein; avoid sweets and fried stuff. If you have weight loss or fat loss goals, keep close track of calories. Ask somewhere else about figuring out how many calories will work for your goals. How's that?

Not bad. Not bad at all.

Although I wish you had told me this before the sour patch kids I just ate, lol.