Goal: ~10-12% bodyfat with athletic frame. Value aesthetics over strength. So kinda like ExpectedV I guess.

Currently 5'9, ~150 lbs. Skinny by all accounts but a bit too soft and too much padding.

Here is a statistical breakdown of my most recent month. I'm 30 days into a slow carb diet (meat/veggies/beans, one cheat day per week) and I'm consistently losing about 1-2 pounds a week. These scans are via DEXA. Visually I feel like I'm at 22% or so bodyfat but the numbers do not lie. I got me a little bit of a gut.



Bench 5RM is probably 135, Squat 175. I peaked at 145 bench, 215 squat, 225 DL until I ran into some hip flexor issues last winter and stopped going max (this was when I weighed in the high 160s also).

Back to the issue at hand... to lose the first 6-8 pounds and only take off 1% bodyfat is a little worrying. I feel like to continue the same pace dieting means I'm gonna look anorexic. Seems like I need to pivot more towards strength gains.

I know this forum is very pro-SS so I think the default answer would be to SS, get a calorie surplus at x calories (idk what x is just yet) and build up strength but idk where to go from there since SS+Bulk tends to run contrary to a low bodyfat aesthetic + the cut cycle post-SS may take off a lot of those muscle gains.

I think the forum is moving at least somewhat away from pro-SS. If you have those numbers with only 108 lbm then I think you're past the point where SS would be optimal for strength, and given you're more interested in aesthetics, it's not even close. Don't do SS.

Also, for the love of god, do not eat a calorie surplus. You should most definitely cut. The good news is that you're probably still weak enough to gain strength on a calorie deficit for many more months, providing that you train with adequate volume.

As for programming, check out GSLP. It is an advanced novice program that is a bit different from SS. I wouldn't only do GSLP given your goals. Just use it to program your main work. You can probably tack on a bodybuilding suite of exercises to be done after your GSLP sets that will meet your aesthetics needs. Rows, curls, abs, calves, lateral raises, triceps extensions, whatever you like. An example workout would look something like this.

Bench (3-5 min rest between sets)
warmups
2x5
1x5+ (leave one rep in tank)

Squat (3-5 min rest between sets)
warmups
2x5
1x5+ (leave one rep in tank)

Rows 3x(8-12) superset w/ abs 3x(15-20) (1-2 min rest between super sets)
Triceps 3x(15-20) superset w/ curls 3x(12-15) (1-2 min rest)



One problem with GSLP is that it doesn't really have a great way to deal with stalls. It just says to reset and hope to make more gains. One way to fix this is to respond to plateaus by adding additional sets. So if you don't gain any strength from one GSLP cycle to the next, reset as indicated, but add a backoff set to the stalled lift.

Bench
2x5
1x5+ (one rep in tank)
1x8+ @90% of workset weight (one rep in tank)

thanks for the program rec renton, i'll look into it for my next lifting day on thursday!

yeah the training volume on a cut is the thing i'm trying to figure out best. primary thing i'm trying to avoid is being unhealthily skinny. 150 has always felt like a normal weight for my height and continuing to press feels like i'm entering some kind of danger zone where sub 140 lbs i'm suddenly too skinny. this seems hard to rationalize when my bf% is where it is, but i guess i worry that i end up anorexic-looking with a pot belly or something, lol.

if i could somehow maintain the same weight but lose 1% of bodyfat a month from strength gains, that would be sweet. doesn't seem super realistic tho. frankly i don't know what to expect on that end.

The realities of natty training are harsh but beautiful, my friends.

/loco

In all seriousness, you took three pounds of bodyfat off in a month, which seems perfectly reasonable, and much of the lean tissue weight you list was probably water, which is also to be expected (all while, as near as I can tell, not working out).

Your "knowledge" of how pro-SS the forum is suggests you haven't been reading all that closely. That said, Renton's suggestion about GSLP+accessories on a deficit seems fine to me. Plenty of accessory ideas sprinkled throughout logs here if you're interested, but in general I tend to subscribe to doing as much upper back work as possible, and that dumbbell pressing after the main upper body movements (flat, incline, and seated shoulder) is a good way to accumulate volume. And if EV is your idol, be sure to add some hamstring work; we wouldn't want two people with dangerously weak hamstrings on the forum.

DEXA is a new thing for me and I wanted to see science-wise what I could accomplish with diet alone (have never really been on such a strict diet before). Lifted intermittently before but obviously not enough.

It's true, haven't been reading this forum as much in the last year. But I do recall a time where SS seemed mandatory here

Haha I don't mean to slurp EV, I just think his profile is more desirable to me than a linebacker 500-pound-squat aesthetic. I don't know his specific routines.

Basically, I think you're going to discover that you aren't meant to be a 150-pound (lean) person. At least not for a long time (2 years or more). After your initial cut, you could be a pretty fit-looking 130-pound person, though. Not shredded or even lean, but you'll probably have some veins in your arms and maybe even some upper abs in good lighting.

You actually seem very similar to where I started body comp wise, except that I was considerably fatter. Especially when it comes to the very low lbm. We're so alike that you could just read my log and do all the things I did right and none of the things I did wrong.


I think you'll find that you're capable of handling more than you think. I was doing 20+ sets of legs per week in the last week of my cycle, while cutting, as a novice / early intermediate. It takes time to build up work capacity but it's possible. And smaller guys can handle more volume, all things being equal.

5'9 150 26% bodyfat?

And thremp gets mad because i put him at 16%. All this time I thought i was being too generous. Thremp has the same lifts as this guy.

The realities of natty training state .... nevermind facking montecore.

But anyways back to the OP. I wouldnt worry too much about diet. In my opinion its almost all irrelevant. Just eat more meat and do whatever it takes to get to 20 pullups, 225 bench press and 275 front squat, 350 deadlift.

Look at number1hater's log, he had identical physique to you a few years back and now has a decent physique. It's mostly exercise volume that destroys skinnyfatism.

Yes loco. My lifts are literally identical. Since literally every professional BBer has the same lifts at the same size. And people wonder why you're routinely ignored. (Have you ever been right anytime you've disagreed with me?)

Why would you ever move off SS if you're still experiencing gains at a deficit to GSLP? It makes virtually no sense. I think GSLP is a decent framework for a program and akin to many of the adjustments that people utilize in advanced novice/intermediate transitions. But if you're simply maintaining LBM and losing fat or any combo of forward progression, why wouldn't you just keep doing what you're doing?

well i know why you are routinely ignored around here, your training is awful. Hit the gym bro.

Can you even total within 40-50kg of me?

Mihkel/loco,

Sounds like it's time to schedule a walk off!

Clayton,

EV is being currently mocked for having an idiot coach who thinks that his hamstrings are "dangerously weak". I can't subject myself to anyone who slurps down that level of stupidity on the reg. (To be separated from general insanity which I find amusing.) Someone else can give the exact specifics, but I wouldn't sweat his training in any way.

im gonna go on a limb and say thremp has a lower bf% than i do.

I can verify this. At a level of confidence approaching complete metaphysical certainty.

Agree with Renton as usual, good advice imo

super grunching, but gonna guess i'm going against the advice of this thread and say you need to push a solid novice progression strength program and gain weight if you have to. don't try to cut.

will also add that renton is incorrect about gslp in that it is very much designed to not stall, as you're always attacking rep records, so when you cut 10%, you damn well better hit -10%xAMRAP for more reps than last time.

eta: heartened to see loco is mostly with me on this

I'm saying the resets don't address what eventually becomes the problem with any beginner program: not enough volume for overload. Yeah, it's nice to damn well better hit something but eventually, that just isn't possible to do (i.e. a stall). You then need to do more work to get better at the thing, not just repeat the same thing and hope for a different result. In fact, I'd even argue that waiting for an out-and-out stall between GSLP resets is overkill; as soon as you only gain 2-5 pounds (depending on the lift obv) on your 3x5 in a cycle I think it's time to add more sets to make faster progress.

I have seen literally no compelling reasons for someone to slow progress and do GSLP (an inherently slower progression) in lieu of SS.

Basically I see people handwave technical proficiency at near failure. Handwave slower gains. And then pretend that adding isolation/volume work to SS is impossible. And advocate something more confusing and difficult to program. (Sometimes in direct contradiction of what they advise. IE GSLP is inherently significantly lower volume.)

I see a few. Up to you whether they're compelling, though.

1) Psychologically it can be grating to lift heavier weight every single day for weeks/months on end. This can hurt WIM and ultimately, compliance of the program.

2) Some people can't handle maximally deadlifting 1.5x / squatting 3x a week after they've got their numbers past a point. Even Rippetoe came up with an "advanced novice" program that reduces the frequency of sq/dl and it looks almost exactly like gslp, but without the amraps and resets.

3) The gslp resets implement an (albeit somewhat crude) form of fatigue management, which is something that lifters who have been doing SS for 3-4 months may need to start addressing. You're right though that they probably need to do more volume, and that's a limitation of GSLP that I've addressed in this thread.

Aside from #1 which is just overtly dumb (SS and GSLP have the exact same progression. And the idea that progress is "grating" is just wtf.) the other two are issues why people who stop progressing on SS need to modify their programming to either "advanced novice" or weekly progression. (Not just start with slower progression on a more complicated program.)

Weirdly the Advanced Novice SS variant actually drops volume and intensity across the week. So I don't even agree with your overall view of "slather on more volume" as generic advice to resets.

Agree on all counts.

not starting the day with squats and not combining squat with DL is sorta appealing tho just in terms of the routine allowing me to mentally get up for it at the right times.

i'm sure this varies from person to person, but i feel like i'd do better with my squat as my 2nd compound lift vs right out the gate. i did lose a lot of motivation to MAX DAT SQUAT as my first lift of the day when i started running into hip issues.

i'm gonna look into this program and continue same diet and just continue updating this thread with monthly dexa stuff.

how much are the monthly dexas? i would think yearly would be better.

I got a couple done and will probably never get them again. Measure your waist around navel and combine that with dexa, after two data points you are set.

Erector and oblique muscle growth is irrelevant, especially for a dyel. waist measurement is solid for all natties for all time and its free

depends on the city and the availability, there's one in my city and i can get em for like 50 bucks. the pamphlet you get has a lot more details than what i posted. cost is a non-issue for me. primary data point for me is body fat%, everything else is frosting.

Waist measurement is the best option for those of us that want a free and equally reliable measure. At some point you can just scale/waist/mirror and figure out whats going on. (Assuming some reasonable level of self-awareness.)