Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Health and Fitness Discussion of health and fitness

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-12-2010, 07:21 AM   #951
milesdyson
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
milesdyson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 23,856
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Quote:
Originally Posted by pkrplyrX View Post
I am confused miles. If I understand correctly, the part of your previous post that is addressed to me is reemphasizing that Lyle has not made a definitive claim wrt an unattainable maximum rate of LBM gains. I don't see how my previous post implies that I didn't know that. Lyle thinks Rip's claim is ridiculous and fabricated, so if Rip is in the ballpark then it's neither ridiculous nor fabricated (though perhaps unintentionally inaccurate) and Lyle is wrong.
first line of your post? "I care b/c I'm interested in how someone can miss something so obvious that seems to fall in their field of expertise."

sounds like you think lyle made a definitive claim and has been proven wrong.
milesdyson is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 07:22 AM   #952
milesdyson
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
milesdyson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 23,856
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Quote:
Originally Posted by pkrplyrX View Post
The scale says over 240, unless you have a read on when Zach touched the slider
rippetoe posted zach's weight as 237.5 when he posted the videos.
milesdyson is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 07:30 AM   #953
milesdyson
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
milesdyson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 23,856
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

scale says 241 and rip subtracted some weight for his shoes imo. so 237-238 is accurate. i was also curious about the late night light weight. he probably weighs 230 and drank most of that gallon of milk before weighing himself. also watching that video makes it obvious that zach is very skillfully sucking in his rather decent-sized gut in the side-view partial nude, though i'd surely do the same.

obv kidding about the milk.
milesdyson is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 07:33 AM   #954
Micturition Man
Pooh-Bah
 
Micturition Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hater gonna hate!
Posts: 4,877
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genz View Post
because he set out to provide proof that his claims are accurate. But now he doesn't provide the best proof available, instead insists on his professional experience and his handiness with a caliper. He does this even though some experienced people think that his measurements are off by looking at the pictures.


Actually if you read Lyle carefully he doesn't even say he thinks the 21% looks off. He just says "it's impossible to eyeball" and refuses to pick a number.

He says "lol 18% is low" but that was just a random tangent because nobody had claimed 18%.



Here is Lyle's post:

"When people have that even distribution, it becomes impossible to eyeball

a girl I know got DEXA'ed, lokoing at her you would have sworn maybe 19%. She came in at 26%

bottom line

1. you don't get to assume starting BF%AGe
2. this guy is NOT 18%
3. diet him down and you'll see that he did not gain that much muscle"



So WTF? He doesn't even say "that looks wrong", he basically says "that must be wrong because it contradicts prevailing opinion".
Micturition Man is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 07:40 AM   #955
milesdyson
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
milesdyson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 23,856
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

it's easy to see why he thought 18% when the first set of data in that thread has 18.4% as the bodyfat and the first non-lyle person to respond with a bodyfat number made the same mistake.

he has also said "33lb" many times, although the "novice effect" article claimed 31lb in 11 weeks.
milesdyson is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 07:44 AM   #956
Genz
Pooh-Bah
 
Genz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,203
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micturition Man View Post
Actually if you read Lyle carefully
Oh no, I won't do that, sorry, it's unbearable

And I think you interpret his post (that you quoted) to match your point of view. I can easily understand that Lyle refuses to pick a specific number because he knows that his guess is pretty inaccurate. So he basically says: do a DEXA. Actually I think that his whole post says "that looks wrong" but at this point he is trying to be polite therefore he mentions points of dogma that make it clear that Rip's statement of 21 % doesn't meet his approval.

This is actually saying "that looks wrong" pretty clearly:
Quote:
bottom line

1. you don't get to assume starting BF%AGe
2. this guy is NOT 18%
3. diet him down and you'll see that he did not gain that much muscle"
Genz is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 07:52 AM   #957
Micturition Man
Pooh-Bah
 
Micturition Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hater gonna hate!
Posts: 4,877
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genz View Post
Oh no, I won't do that, sorry, it's unbearable

And I think you interpret his post (that you quoted) to match your point of view. I can easily understand that Lyle refuses to pick a specific number because he knows that his guess is pretty inaccurate. So he basically says: do a DEXA. Actually I think that his whole post says "that looks wrong" but at this point he is trying to be polite therefore he mentions points of dogma that make it clear that Rip's statement of 21 % doesn't meet his approval.

This is actually saying "that looks wrong" pretty clearly:


This is getting too nitty but I believe when he made that post he thought that Rip's calculations used the 18% figure, so he would not have been implying anything about 21%.

It would have been very easy for him to just state "21% looks low".

It's really a shame nobody ninja-posted Zach's pic in Lyle's "estimate my BF%" thread before Lyle knew who it was.

As far as I know he has never declined to put a number on someone based on eyeballing it. He has said stuff like "your distribution is deceptive, I think you're ~18% [compared to 15% that other people are saying for example".

But AFAIK he never just throws up his hands and says it's impossible to eyeball. And through this whole controversy he has never suggested a BF% range for Zach.
Micturition Man is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 07:55 AM   #958
pkrplyrX
adept
 
pkrplyrX's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Playing HU Rush
Posts: 1,134
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Quote:
Originally Posted by milesdyson View Post
first line of your post? "I care b/c I'm interested in how someone can miss something so obvious that seems to fall in their field of expertise."

sounds like you think lyle made a definitive claim and has been proven wrong.
Yeah, I also said
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkrplyrX View Post
Does anyone know why Lyle's estimates of maximal LBM gains are so far off?
I'm thinking of "1 lb/week on anaconda" as though the maximum for someone not on anaconda should be lower. And Lyle said (paraphrase) "that's better than ****ing steroids" like Rip's claim is wildly off. Lyle is in Lalaland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genz View Post
pkrplyrx:

because he set out to provide proof that his claims are accurate. But now he doesn't provide the best proof available, instead insists on his professional experience and his handiness with a caliper. He does this even though some experienced people think that his measurements are off by looking at the pictures. That should be enough motivation to use a better method (and split the bill if that's the reason not to do it).

OTOH, a more precise measurement method doesn't really help, imo, because it's about the relative gains and the starting measurements were taken with a caliper too.
Okay, Rip set out to prove his claims, isn't providing the best proof available, experienced people disagree based on the pictures, but I wouldn't say he insists on his handiness with a caliper
Quote:
Rip
Anyone who says otherwise is either calling me a liar or is saying that I don’t know how to weigh and measure bodyfat. That’s fine, and we can settle it whenever you want to.
So go ahead and assume that he isn't handy with a caliper and that the #s are off. Big deal. If you or anyone else wants to go to WFAC and settle it then the invitation is open. But why should Rip have to prove his claims using a more precise method?
Quote:
Originally Posted by milesdyson View Post
he has also said "33lb" many times, although the "novice effect" article claimed 31lb in 11 weeks.
Rip is a fraud
pkrplyrX is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 07:56 AM   #959
Genz
Pooh-Bah
 
Genz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,203
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micturition Man View Post
This is getting too nitty but I believe when he made that post he thought that Rip's calculations used the 18% figure, so he would not have been implying anything about 21%.
I think he probably would have said the same thing if "21" had been the number that had been floating around.

But anyway, at this point, I really don't get what your point actually is that you are trying to get across anymore.

This discussion has gone on too long anyway, imo.
Genz is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 08:01 AM   #960
Micturition Man
Pooh-Bah
 
Micturition Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hater gonna hate!
Posts: 4,877
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genz View Post
I think he probably would have said the same thing if "21" had been the number that had been floating around.

But anyway, at this point, I really don't get what your point actually is that you are trying to get across anymore.

This discussion has gone on too long anyway, imo.


The point in this sub-sub-sub-thread was that I'm not sure your claim that "experienced people are saying the BF% figure looks off" is true.

What experienced people* are saying is that the BF% figure *MUST* be off, because if it's not their theories are incorrect.

Those are two very different arguments.



*[By experienced people I don't mean Lyle nuthuggers on his forum, I mean people like Lyle himself, Alan Aragon, any legit diet guru. And if some of these people are saying that the 21% looks significantly low then I will concede the point.]
Micturition Man is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 08:03 AM   #961
Genz
Pooh-Bah
 
Genz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,203
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Quote:
Originally Posted by pkrplyrX View Post
So go ahead and assume that he isn't handy with a caliper and that the #s are off. Big deal. If you or anyone else wants to go to WFAC and settle it then the invitation is open. But why should Rip have to prove his claims using a more precise method?
Because he is the one who started the "Zach experiment"?!?

Rip is the one who makes claims that seem to be ridiculous to most people in the industry and science. So now everybody has to settle for unclear testing environment (cf. the body weight discrepancies with regards to daytime etc.) and sub-optimal testing tools, because "they don't know the procedure"? Saying that people like Lyle don't know anything about the use of a caliper is pretty much an insult in itself.

My earlier statement of me having no sympathy whatsoever for Lyle and his behavior still stands, btw. He handled the situation awfully and he was way out of line, professionally and personally.
Genz is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 08:18 AM   #962
Soulman
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Soulman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kettleballin'
Posts: 31,644
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Rip stated specifically somewhere that he didn't care to be more exact than this and that scientists should do experiments in controlled environments, he didn't care enough to do so. If someone like say Aragon approached him and asked to use <measurement x and y>, I do think he would be open to this (at least if he didn't have to do the work himself, heh). Would be marginally interesting.
Soulman is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 08:23 AM   #963
jimi1999uk
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,893
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

lol. The Rip/Lyle rage has made it over to 2p2. At least your not calling each other slack jawed ******s i suppose.
jimi1999uk is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 08:24 AM   #964
pkrplyrX
adept
 
pkrplyrX's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Playing HU Rush
Posts: 1,134
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Genz,

Everybody doesn't have to settle for an unclear testing environment. They can reproduce these results w/skinny young guys, barbells, food, and milk. They can also go to WFAC and measure Zach using a caliper themselves or ask if he is willing to try another method.

And so what if Rip started the Zach experiment!!! How does that lead you to conclude that he should use a more precise method? He could have taken pictures and said just eyeball them. If that's not good enough for you, fine. Why is it Rip's job to prove to the world what his program can do?
pkrplyrX is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 08:28 AM   #965
Soulman
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Soulman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kettleballin'
Posts: 31,644
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

AFAIK Rip doesn't make any of these claims in his books. Ergo, he's not using them to push his sales, since that would be the obvious place to put them if he wanted to use the gains as a marketing tool.
Soulman is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 08:38 AM   #966
00Snitch
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
00Snitch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Brosbane
Posts: 20,865
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Now everyone is arguing in this thread based on what they thing rip or lyle meant when they said x.
00Snitch is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 08:54 AM   #967
Soulman
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Soulman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kettleballin'
Posts: 31,644
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

How big a pussy am I if I start using the PPAN template when my squats reach 270 (about a week)?
Soulman is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 09:03 AM   #968
Genz
Pooh-Bah
 
Genz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,203
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Yeah. The whole discussion is pointless. My point was mentioning that Rip has a habit of making claims ("we do it here all the time") and then saying "I'm just a gym owner, not a scientist/doctor/coach, I don't care to be exact". That is bad style and dishonest imo, esp. when you use radio shows etc. to mock people who say otherwise.
Genz is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 09:06 AM   #969
00Snitch
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
00Snitch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Brosbane
Posts: 20,865
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Question...

Someone recently posted this from Mark Twight. I mostly only skimmed it, but it was do do with specifity in endurance training, right? i.e. to get good at running long distances, you have to run long distances.

Is it my imagination, or have I read the same style article somewhere before about speed training? If so, anyone got a link, or at least who wrote the article I am thinking about..?
00Snitch is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 09:18 AM   #970
Genz
Pooh-Bah
 
Genz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,203
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Quote:
Originally Posted by pkrplyrX View Post
And so what if Rip started the Zach experiment!!! How does that lead you to conclude that he should use a more precise method? He could have taken pictures and said just eyeball them. If that's not good enough for you, fine. Why is it Rip's job to prove to the world what his program can do?
My last response in this matter. Tl;dr

From my point of view Rip put himself out there recently by going on and on about the awesome gains of Justin, AC, Zach and about how common all this is and about how everyone else is ridic. I think IIRC he is pretty clear and direct in that web radio interview a while back. If you act like that and bash other people's businesses etc. you are required to provide the best available proof imo and can't just say "I don't really care that much."
and he certainly makes profit by the 70sbig guys, who make huge claims all the time too. So he can't really hide behind just being the gym owner. Because where do you think their opinions are coming from?
Moreover he is expanding his business to certification courses so he claims to be an authority. Afterall, SS is all about the novice gains. And saying this only includes the strength but not the weight gain potential is insincere. He keeps going on about the connection of growth and gain.
Genz is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 09:19 AM   #971
Soulman
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Soulman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kettleballin'
Posts: 31,644
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Good posts Genz, totally agree.
Soulman is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 10:26 AM   #972
Duerig
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,220
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Funnie II View Post
Doc says torn meniscus and MCL. MRI in the next couple of days should confirm/ indicate severity.

I think from now on I'm just going to use a wheelchair to go everywhere, unless I'm doing cardio or lifting.
Wow that sucks - any idea how this happened and what you might have been able to do to prevent it?
Duerig is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 12:48 PM   #973
TheMetetrown
veteran
 
TheMetetrown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Mexico
Posts: 2,287
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

All this talk of DEXA scans made me google that and see that UT offers them to the public for $90. Might actually get one done since I don't know anyone who is particularly accurate with calipers and I'd like to get a reasonable estimate of my body fat % to see how my training goals are progressing. I think the Accu-Measure one spot caliper test is terribly off for me anyway as I'm not sure I'm even doing the right spot and I'm skinny fat so my body fat is all concentrated in my torso.
TheMetetrown is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 12:50 PM   #974
Micturition Man
Pooh-Bah
 
Micturition Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hater gonna hate!
Posts: 4,877
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMetetrown View Post
All this talk of DEXA scans made me google that and see that UT offers them to the public for $90. Might actually get one done since I don't know anyone who is particularly accurate with calipers and I'd like to get a reasonable estimate of my body fat % to see how my training goals are progressing. I think the Accu-Measure one spot caliper test is terribly off for me anyway as I'm not sure I'm even doing the right spot and I'm skinny fat so my body fat is all concentrated in my torso.

I'm actually thinking of doing one myself just to see how accurate my calipers are.

The thing that turns me off is it seems like a doctor's appointment kind of deal, where you wind up waiting like an hour and filling out a bunch of pointless forms.
Micturition Man is offline  
Old 03-12-2010, 12:59 PM   #975
Soulman
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Soulman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kettleballin'
Posts: 31,644
Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

One spot caliper measurements are obviously pure lolz.
Soulman is offline  

Closed Thread
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive