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Old 03-03-2010, 09:43 PM   #301
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

miles, link to "your estimate"
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:46 PM   #302
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Water weight is a good point. Could be the case. But don't think it makes much difference. Some people in Lyle's forum and even Lyle himself are claiming he basically looks the same with just fat on top with no lbm gain. Ludicrous he has clearly gained a lot of muscular bodyweight.
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:47 PM   #303
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

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Originally Posted by milesdyson View Post
the LBM gain chart thing was only brought into the conversation by others. in the article itself, there are exceptions, including starting underweight. he clearly started underweight, so the 20-25lb lbm/year could be low. but it just does not look like he added 46lb of muscle to his body.

i don't know how many other possible factors there could be, but one i do know of is creatine. if he takes creatine and is holding an extra 6-10lb of water, that alone makes a pretty big difference in the amount of lbm he gained. 80% of that water weight would be attributed to lbm, which is substantial.

Lyle originally phrased that exception quite strictly, like "severely underweight malnourished teenagers" or something.

Also even if you at a less lean person making less extreme gains, .5 pounds LBM per week is just way too low a ceiling for novices, imo.

What rate do you think you gained at during your novice phase?
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:47 PM   #304
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

What does FFMI really mean? ie what does 24 mean?
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:49 PM   #305
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

it's in the deleted march threads when i posted the pictures. i originally said 25, then edited to 25-28 for no reason.
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:50 PM   #306
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Quote:
Originally Posted by MI101 View Post
imo making a push up into a plyo exercise and then shoving in multiple sets of failure on bench press day is probably the worst way to go about incorporating push ups.
I didn't make this up for myself. It is part of the stronglifts 5x5 program. I like it cause it gets in a little cardio and higher rep work to mix things up. However, I do not religiously work out every other day and try to increase weight linearly like SS prescribes.

Not to mention getting in a little arm pump...

Last edited by anonn12345; 03-03-2010 at 09:58 PM.
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:54 PM   #307
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Quote:
Originally Posted by milesdyson View Post
it's in the deleted march threads when i posted the pictures. i originally said 25, then edited to 25-28 for no reason.
on this forum? your initial post was confusing. i thought you were saying that lyle or rip had estimated your lbm.
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:56 PM   #308
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

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I didn't make this up for myself. It is part of the stronglifts 5x5 program. I like it cause it gets in a little cardio and higher rep work to mix things up. However, I do not religiously work out every other day and try to increase weight linearly like SS prescribes.

Only a fanatic would work out every other day!
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Old 03-03-2010, 09:57 PM   #309
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

or actually progress
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Old 03-03-2010, 10:00 PM   #310
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micturition Man View Post
Lyle originally phrased that exception quite strictly, like "severely underweight malnourished teenagers" or something.

Also even if you at a less lean person making less extreme gains, .5 pounds LBM per week is just way too low a ceiling for novices, imo.

What rate do you think you gained at during your novice phase?
language is very open and implies he believes a person like zach would gain more than 0.5/week because of his age and starting light. he even ends the article with stating it's only a rough average, so even above and beyond the other listed factors, there's more room for quicker growth.

Quote:
younger individuals may gain more quickly. For example, it’s not unheard of for underweight high school kids to gain muscle very rapidly. But they are usually starting out very underweight and have the natural anabolic steroid cycle called puberty working for them... Again, that’s a rough average, you might find some who gain a bit more and some who gain a bit less. And there will be other factors that impact on the above numbers (e.g. age, hormones, etc.).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra_Z_Boy View Post
What does FFMI really mean? ie what does 24 mean?
it's supposed to mean that you have almost as much LBM as you'll be able to hold at your height without drugs. 25 is just about the upper limit according to this article.
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Old 03-03-2010, 10:01 PM   #311
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

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on this forum? your initial post was confusing. i thought you were saying that lyle or rip had estimated your lbm.
oh no, i was taking into account all those things when i was estimating zach's bodyfat.
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Old 03-03-2010, 10:05 PM   #312
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Miles, at what rate do you think you yourself put on LBM as a novice?

And regarding the exception Lyle allows for, I believe in Zach's case we are talking way way over 1/2 pound a week, if the 21% estimate is accurate.

Not sure though, I haven't actually read Rip's article.
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Old 03-03-2010, 10:14 PM   #313
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

basically the rip bodyfat measurement implies that zach gained, in 6 months, what lyle says is possible over 4 years of "proper training" in the genetic muscular potential article.

i have no clue about my own rate. i didn't log my weight well at all, so i don't even have a base to start making baseless estimations!
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Old 03-03-2010, 10:32 PM   #314
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Quote:
Originally Posted by milesdyson View Post
basically the rip bodyfat measurement implies that zach gained, in 6 months, what lyle says is possible over 4 years of "proper training" in the genetic muscular potential article.

Seems to me this gives Rippetoe a pretty huge margin of error before Lyle wins the argument. IDK though.
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Old 03-03-2010, 10:37 PM   #315
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

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Originally Posted by milesdyson View Post
it's in the deleted march threads when i posted the pictures. i originally said 25, then edited to 25-28 for no reason.
I think you are vastly underestimating the amount of muscle you will drop when you cut. Getting to 25 FFMI while under 10% is very difficult. I start loosing 1lb of muscle for every 1lb of fat loss as I cut below 13% or so.

Last time I tried to cut to 8% I started at ~13% and 200 and was about 180 when I hit 8%. Some if it may be glycogen and water, but my calculated FFM drops pretty rapidly when I cut.
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Old 03-03-2010, 10:53 PM   #316
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Quote:
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it's supposed to mean that you have almost as much LBM as you'll be able to hold at your height without drugs. 25 is just about the upper limit according to this article.
Lol is that some kind of joke? in fairness I don't know my bodyfat exactly but I can clearly see my abs so i guessed 13%. 23.6 I came out as.
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Old 03-03-2010, 10:54 PM   #317
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

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Originally Posted by Micturition Man View Post
Seems to me this gives Rippetoe a pretty huge margin of error before Lyle wins the argument. IDK though.
He can't really win the argument though. If what happened did in fact happen then Lyle is wrong.
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Old 03-03-2010, 11:01 PM   #318
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra_Z_Boy View Post
Lol is that some kind of joke? in fairness I don't know my bodyfat exactly but I can clearly see my abs so i guessed 13%. 23.6 I came out as.

One thing that confuses me with this FFMI thingy is that it does not discount for bf level. You get a lot of "meaningless" LBM that comes along with high levels of fat just to support your increased weight.

Like if you take some gigantically obese 700 pound guy I'm sure his FFMI is off the charts.

I guess I'm not really clear on the point of the FFMI. If there were an attached bf% level then it could tell you that your genetic potential at that BF is X and you can see how close you are, which would be worth something I guess.
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Old 03-03-2010, 11:05 PM   #319
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISF View Post
I think you are vastly underestimating the amount of muscle you will drop when you cut. Getting to 25 FFMI while under 10% is very difficult. I start loosing 1lb of muscle for every 1lb of fat loss as I cut below 13% or so.

Last time I tried to cut to 8% I started at ~13% and 200 and was about 180 when I hit 8%. Some if it may be glycogen and water, but my calculated FFM drops pretty rapidly when I cut.
i made sure to say an efficient cut. for example, if i'm the same bodyfat as zachary, i currently am holding 202lb lbm. to get to 25 ffmi at 13%, i'd have to get lose 40 lb. 26lb fat and 14lb muscle.
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Old 03-03-2010, 11:09 PM   #320
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Sumo Wrestlers have the highest amount of lbm in the world I think I read. How would they look on the FFMI index?
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Old 03-03-2010, 11:11 PM   #321
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

i also wonder how sumos do in the main lifts, i mean these guys must have numbers pretty similar to the top powerlifters
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Old 03-03-2010, 11:17 PM   #322
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Doubt it, they probably don't weight train much.
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Old 03-03-2010, 11:23 PM   #323
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

really? id have thought it would have been a huge element of their training.
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Old 03-03-2010, 11:26 PM   #324
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Derek Poundstone Arnold Classic Training.

Pretty crazy strong, dude keeps getting bigger.
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Old 03-03-2010, 11:34 PM   #325
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

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really? id have thought it would have been a huge element of their training.

I would guess sumo of all sports is way too mired in tradition to do much modern weight training.

You couldn't even compete as a non-Japanese until like the last 15 years or something.
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