**8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8 - Page 65

Perhaps the strongest case against the idea of a dosing limit beyond which anabolism or muscle retention can occur is the recent intermittent fasting (IF) research, particularly the trials with a control group on a conventional diet. For example, Soeters and colleagues compared two weeks of IF involving 20-hour fasting cycles with a conventional diet [13]. Despite the IF group’s consumption of an average of 101 g protein in a 4-hour window, there was no difference in preservation of lean mass and muscle protein between groups.

In another example, Stote and colleagues actually reported an improvement in body composition (including an increase in lean mass) after 8 weeks in the IF group consuming one meal per day, where roughly 86 g protein was ingested in a 4-hour window [14]. Interestingly, the conventional group consuming three meals spread throughout the day showed no significant body composition improvements.

so these guys aren't eating for 20 hours at a time and are experiencing no drawbacks.

03-20-2010 , 03:06 PM

#1603

Thremp

banned

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 36,452

Not exactly the same subject. The idea here is that more frequent meals leads to high blood amino acid levels which is muscle sparing. I'm unsure if high levels of blood amino acid = muscle sparing in all populations regardless of caloric deficit/surplus, activity level or LBM. I can't imagine it being a bad thing. But that being said, I'm not going to ****ing bother with it... ever.

Not to mention the fact Johnny PAIN recommends it, almost makes me sure that I won't be doing it.

03-20-2010 , 03:06 PM

#1604

jimi1999uk

old hand

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,893

I'm going to try to film some of my power cleans tomorrow for your viewing pleasures but before i do so could you guys tell me what i'm doing wrong.

Last workout when i racked the bar it kept putting noticable pressure on my neck a good number of times. As much as this sounds like i'm a hypochondriac i felt fairly lighted headed when this happened (might just be standard exertion i dunno). What am i doing wrong you think? Thanks.

03-20-2010 , 03:08 PM

#1605

Thremp

banned

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 36,452

The main issue is whining. But I think not being a sissy is also part of the problem.

03-20-2010 , 03:12 PM

#1606

jimi1999uk

old hand

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,893

Haha. You are both wise and kind Thremp. If it was only once or twice i'd ignore it but i seemed to be doing it fairly often. As for the whining/sissy there isn't much i can do about it. Set in my ways.

03-20-2010 , 03:14 PM

#1607

Micturition Man

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,159

Sometimes when I eat multiple small meals I can literally feeling the amino acids coursing through my veins. It's acid so it burns, but it's amino acid so it's a good burn.

03-20-2010 , 03:19 PM

#1608

Genz

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 5,203

Quote:

Originally Posted by milesdyson

so these guys aren't eating for 20 hours at a time and are experiencing no drawbacks.

I did the IF diet called "Warrior Diet" for a pretty long time in 2008 (?) and it worked pretty well. I had a decent success wrt to body recomposition and little overall weight loss. FWIW, I ate fruits, veggies and salad and some dairy throughout the day and had one big meal in the evening.

03-20-2010 , 03:24 PM

#1609

milesdyson

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 23,856

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thremp

true. though i've seen him say that 90g protein was "unnecessary" before bed. guy wanted to drink a shake PWO and have some tuna. Jonathan Pain told him to only have one or the other, which is weird.

either way, i believe aragon's article and the IF research disproves even this "constant amino acid level" theory. Jonathan Pain recommends 6+ meals per day, which to me is basically non-stop eating. he has to believe that fasting for 20 hours per day would be massively catabolic, but it isn't.

03-20-2010 , 03:27 PM

#1610

Thremp

banned

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 36,452

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genz

lol this bears resemblance to the warrior diet in the same way my dick resembles Mandingo's.

03-20-2010 , 03:29 PM

#1611

Thremp

banned

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 36,452

Quote:

Originally Posted by milesdyson

Yeah. That is what I was trying to get at previously that one thing (which may be good in most groups) doesn't necessarily beget the end goal. Like high levels of amino acids are gooder, but it may not mean we spare muscle when coupled to the 8 trillion other variables that diets create. So... Who ****ing cares. 6 meals is like ****** recommendation. Am I gonna die if I eat 8 or 5?

03-20-2010 , 03:31 PM

#1612

Spenda

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 15,314

let's say we were going to do TM on a deficit and our weekly diet included one refeed, 2 days at maintenance, and 4 deficit days.

Which day would you refeed, volume or intensity? How about 2 high-calorie days on M/F and 5 deficit days?

03-20-2010 , 03:33 PM

#1613

Thremp

banned

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 36,452

Why the **** would you couple a stupid ass diet idea with a program like that?

Why don't you just surround each workout with a "refeed", and eat less every other time?

ETA: I asked Jeff this. He said basically this but in a nicer way. Probably because he just got done slaying some hottie or driving in his jag or something.

Last edited by Thremp; 03-20-2010 at 03:34 PM. Reason: ETA

03-20-2010 , 03:33 PM

#1614

Genz

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 5,203

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thremp

lol this bears resemblance to the warrior diet in the same way my dick resembles Mandingo's.

I don't know if you have actually read the book by Hofmekler. I did. And it allows/recommends the intake of fruit, veggies and nuts/seeds (in the afternoon) during the day. So, congrats on your dick (yes, I actually took the time to google Mandingo. Why the F does one know names of male porn actors?!?).

03-20-2010 , 03:40 PM

#1615

Spenda

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 15,314

there are 2 male pornstars you're allowed to know, Mandingo is certainly one of them

03-20-2010 , 03:42 PM

#1616

tmcdmck

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 6,497

ron jeremy and john holmes have both entered popular culture imo

03-20-2010 , 03:47 PM

#1617

Spenda

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 15,314

yea I think I'm gonna do TM, and just gorge on M/W/F and eat at a slight deficit on the other days and see how that works out. I'm off a deficit just trying to figure out how others did it.

03-20-2010 , 03:49 PM

#1618

Thremp

banned

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 36,452

Its dumb to try to couple random diets w/random workouts. Like just eating a deficit with higher cals on workout days comprised by peri-workout nutrition is probably going to capture 99% of the potential of super optimal maximization diet 129318231.

03-20-2010 , 03:50 PM

#1619

Thremp

banned

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 36,452

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genz

I did the IF diet called "Warrior Diet" for a pretty long time in 2008 (?) and it worked pretty well. I had a decent success wrt to body recomposition and little overall weight loss. FWIW, I ate fruits, veggies and salad and some dairy throughout the day and had one big meal in the evening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genz

I don't know if you have actually read the book by Hofmekler. I did. And it allows/recommends the intake of fruit, veggies and nuts/seeds (in the afternoon) during the day. So, congrats on your dick (yes, I actually took the time to google Mandingo. Why the F does one know names of male porn actors?!?).

Consistency. Joe Morgan wishes you had it.

03-20-2010 , 04:12 PM

#1620

Genz

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 5,203

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thremp

Consistency. Joe Morgan wishes you had it.

I admit I wasn't careful enough to make a full, complete and exhaustive list of things that are allowed throughout the day in both posts. With this out of the way, please go ahead and post the real argument you have against my representation of the warrior diet, that caused your dismissive statement about your genitalia.

03-20-2010 , 04:17 PM

#1621

Thremp

banned

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 36,452

He recommends fruit and veggies and juice. The nuts/dairy/lean protein stuff is a if necessary, "well I guess you can have it" style addition.

03-20-2010 , 04:25 PM

#1622

Genz

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 5,203

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thremp

He recommends fruit and veggies and juice. The nuts/dairy/lean protein stuff is a if necessary, "well I guess you can have it" style addition.

Iirc the protein is recommended for people who work out a lot and he's pretty much into almonds and walnuts and generally recommends them.

03-20-2010 , 04:29 PM

#1623

Thremp

banned

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 36,452

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genz

Iirc the protein is recommended for people who work out a lot and he's pretty much into almonds and walnuts and generally recommends them.

It'd be interesting if his book actually said this. Can you find where? Hint: Its not in the QA or in the chapter about undereating.

03-20-2010 , 04:46 PM

#1624

Genz

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 5,203

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thremp

It'd be interesting if his book actually said this. Can you find where? Hint: Its not in the QA or in the chapter about undereating.

P. 31: first mention of their good effect with the advice to save them for the big meal.
P. 44: optional handful of raw almonds starting in the afternoon (as I recalled)

he shares his love for them from page 62 and following.

So it's mostly a part of the overeating phase but they are allowed in the undereating cycle with some limitations.

I'll finish watching the last king of Scotland now before the klitschko fight. So please excuse me.

03-20-2010 , 04:51 PM

#1625

Thremp

banned

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 36,452

So they're optional and not recommended. He further clarifies this in the QA by saying that they're typically used during the adaptation phase. He also mentions nothing about walnuts. GLHF.

If you're confused, he offers a list at the end of the chapter that says "RECOMMENDED" and "OPTIONAL".

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