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Old 09-10-2021, 03:40 AM   #826
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Re: 50th year PRs

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Originally Posted by feel wrath View Post
so I switched screens for a few mins to look at the curve and it does look I'd say 90% like the 'ideal' curve in both the links. the only differences are...it's potentially a little longer/flatter (although it's hard to truly compare without photos) and there's actually a tiny kink/rise 80-90% of the way through the stroke.(imagine a short rise of 20m while continuing your descent down a 500m hill. Guessing there's a tiny extra power generation as I pull my body back and potentially pull a little more with my arms just before the catch

obviously to be of any real value, I need to look at it when I'm doing different stroke rates, different efforts and at different drags which...I'm not a lock to do, but it's a useful tool for sure
So let's say you rowed at 2:06 at max drag factor, your force curve would be really flat. If you rowed at 2:06 at lowest drag factor, your force curve would be too steep (using extremes to illustrate a point). So the fact that it is 80-90% tells me that lowering your drag factor by 5-10 might be ideal.

The kink definitely needs to be eliminated. It is making your stroke not as efficient as possible. If you row your next steady state while displaying the force curve, it should be pretty easy to figure out where the kink is coming from (or confirm what you already know).

Your stroke is obviously pretty good, but this is all for that extra tiny percentages that you're trying to eek out.
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Old 09-10-2021, 05:05 AM   #827
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Re: 50th year PRs

yeah, the link is tiny but I agree. I also haven’t worked out where the ideal drag will be for me, although I’m 90% + that it’ll be somewhere between 120 and 130

I’ll be doing a fast 30r 20 on Sun, which will mean I’ll actually do a long (for me, tiny for Monte) warm up of 10 mins, so I’ll play around with a few different drags and rates during that to look at the curve and see if/how it varies
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Old 09-10-2021, 08:00 AM   #828
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Re: 50th year PRs

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thoughts and prayers. I think if paste was crueller, he’d have made that session 2, then 2.5 and then 3k. Not sure I could have managed it psychologically in that instance

Hey have you ever heard a rattle and a clunking noise at the catch with your machine?

I don’t think there’s something wrong with my erg because it wasn’t happening when I was rowing slowly but can’t be certain what was causing it. Not sure if my stroke was so long that I was reaching the end of the chain or if my stroke was too violent and the pull was uneven and causing the chain to rattle?

Idk
Almost certainly an uneven pull based on the force curve discussion below. Zero chance you're getting to the end of the chain. Probably worth me paying more attention to my force curve too; I suspect it's more optimal now but who knows; I'll play around with my drag during UT3 today and see what I see.

Also zero chance I do a 2k/2.5k/3k interval session either, by the way.
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Old 09-11-2021, 03:29 AM   #829
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Re: 50th year PRs

4x5-90 Bench/4x15 Face Pulls
3x8/8-22.5 DB Flye, DB Bench
3x8-70kg Bent Over Row/3x12 DB row 22.5kg
3x9 Close Grip Bench/3x12 seated Hammer Curl

Happy to have a non rowing day after intense sessions the past few days.
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Old 09-11-2021, 11:07 PM   #830
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Re: 50th year PRs

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30r20 at drag factor 123

7779m, an improvement of 47m or 0.7/500m on the previous time I did this two weeks ago. I really like this workout.

30:00.0 7,779m 1:55.6 20 158

6:00.0 1,548m 1:56.2 20 148
12:00.0 1,558m 1:55.5 20 156
18:00.0 1,561m 1:55.3 20 160
24:00.0 1,549m 1:56.2 20 163
30:00.0 1,563m 1:55.1 20 167

there's something great about getting to Friday evening and having completed your 3 tough sessions for the week. Weights tomorrow, long slow row on Sunday and then a rest day on Mon.


30r 20 (30 minute row at stroke rate 20 or less)

7863m or 1.54.4/500m an improvement of 84m, or 1.2secs/500m on the last time I did this. drag was 121, after being 122 the previous time I did it

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M hr

30:00.0 7,863m 1:54.4 233 1103 19 165

6:00.0 1,576m 1:54.2 235 1108 19 154
12:00.0 1,568m 1:54.7 231 1096 19 163
18:00.0 1,581m 1:53.8 237 1116 20 168
24:00.0 1,568m 1:54.7 231 1096 20 170
30:00.0 1,571m 1:54.5 233 1100 20 172

really happy (and a little proud) of this. had a fairly boozy afternoon and evening and then got less than 5 hours sleep last night for puppy reasons and was extremely tired all morning. Am also switching where possible to morning training sessions where possible to help acclimatise my body to performing at this time, which is when the competition will be held. This meant training in the heat (29 degrees)

there was lots of negative self talk and my heart rate got into the 160s by the 9th minute and I started making plans to quit at 5k, then 20 mins, 6k etc'. it was only when I got to 25 mins that I realised I could finish it

I must say, I really like this stroke rate for the longer rows. When I had to abort my 10k pr attempt a few weeks ago, I was rating at 24 sm and I had to quite while rowing 2secs/500 lower than this. When I do another 10k attempt, I'll try to rate at 20/21 and I think I'll be able to get below 38.40.

all in all, a very good week of training with two good 'PRs' in sessions I train regularly and the most metres I've ever rowed in one session and also in one week.

Last edited by feel wrath; 09-11-2021 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 09-11-2021, 11:17 PM   #831
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Re: 50th year PRs



Ok, so this is the first of three photos I took while warming up. One was with the damper on 3, one with damper on 5, the other with the damper on 7

FYI, 5 equates to about 125 drag on my machine
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Old 09-11-2021, 11:18 PM   #832
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Re: 50th year PRs

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Old 09-11-2021, 11:19 PM   #833
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Re: 50th year PRs

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Old 09-12-2021, 12:14 AM   #834
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Re: 50th year PRs

Which one looks best? Tbh, they all look pretty similar to me?
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Old 09-14-2021, 03:40 AM   #835
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Re: 50th year PRs

The force curves look pretty good. That's hardly surprising though - the second one is 1:48 at 125 DF! I rowed a 2k at 125 DF as well at 1:49. You need to see what happens to this force curve when you are doing UT2 at 2:05 or whatever at 125 DF.
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Old 09-14-2021, 04:08 AM   #836
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Re: 50th year PRs

Actually the first photo is with the damper on 7, the second with the damper on 3 and the third one with the damper on 5.

It was an interesting process - the curve looks way better the harder I pulled. When I was rowing at say 2.10 pace, each of the curves looked a lot flatter
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Old 09-14-2021, 04:09 AM   #837
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Re: 50th year PRs

all three have the tiny little kink near the catch, but unsure where that’s coming from. Also, not a high tech screen - would be good to see it on a 40 inch Apple monitor!
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Old 09-14-2021, 05:05 AM   #838
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Re: 50th year PRs

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It was an interesting process - the curve looks way better the harder I pulled. When I was rowing at say 2.10 pace, each of the curves looked a lot flatter
This is exactly what I was saying over and over again! I am glad you got it. That harder pull with the nice force curve is exactly how your stroke should be. If 1:50/125 is optimal for you, then in order to pull that hard at 2:10, you simply have to lower the drag factor. Otherwise you will be pulling weakly at 2:10/125 and your stroke won't be efficient. Try rowing at 2:10 and getting the nice force curve, your drag factor has to be lower! Now that might be 80 or it might be 120, but all I was saying earlier is that you have to adjust your drag factor based on how fast you are rowing.
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Old 09-14-2021, 05:42 AM   #839
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Re: 50th year PRs

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did the Power Pyramid for my mid length interval session this week.

overall 13.20.3 at 1.40.0/500, an improvement of 1.1 seconds per 500m...8.5 seconds overall on my previous fastest time

250m (90r) 1.36.2/500 sr 32
500m (180r) 1.38.7/500 sr 30 hr 157
750m (270r) 1.40.2/500 sr 30 hr 164
1000m (360r) 1.42.7/700 sr 29 hr 167
750m (270r) 1.41.2/500 sr 30 hr 167
500m (180r) 1.39.4/500 sr 30 hr 164
250m 1.33.0/500 sr 34 hr 155

extremely happy with this today. went out a little faster than planned with my early splits and got a little nervous half way through the first 750 that I wasn't going to be able to hold out, but I relaxed a little in the 1k leg and lengthened my stroke a little and that helped keep the heart rate in check

felt really fresh for the final two legs and was happy to see my heart rate stay lower.

I've had a great 4 weeks of training and can feel improvement in both my engine and the strength of my stroke. I'm really getting used to the higher drag now (125 for this) and think it's definitely a keeper

I'm tempted to try a PR in the next week or two, but I'm gonna hold out - I've entered a competition in 4 weeks time and I think I'll aim to peak for that...albeit I might do a semi 10k PR attempt for my 'hard distance' session on the weekend - won't go balls out but my go RPE 9.5
did the Power Pyramid today for the first time in 5 weeks

overall 13.08.6 at 1.38.5/500m, an improvement of 1.5 seconds per 500m....11.7 seconds faster overall

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M hr
13:08.6 4,000m 1:38.5 365 1557 30 159

0:47.3 250m 1:34.6 413 1722 33 138
r: 1:30
1:37.1 500m 1:37.1 382 1615 31 158
r: 3:00
2:29.0 750m 1:39.3 357 1528 30 166
r: 4:30
3:22.0 1,000m 1:41.0 340 1469 30 168
r: 6:00
2:29.7 750m 1:39.8 352 1511 30 168
r: 4:30
1:37.6 500m 1:37.6 376 1595 33 165
r: 3:00
0:45.8 250m 1:31.5 455 1867 35 154

really happy and a little surprised with the continued improvement here again. When I'm planning the session, I review the times from the previous session and then plan a slightly faster time in each split to aim for, to ensure I give myself the best chance to improve on last time. I noticed that I went quicker than planned in each of the first two intervals and was a little worried I'd bonk, but I just kept being able to sustain my pace each time.

I really do think the Pete's Plan is a good program...I'm not suggesting that other programs wouldn't equally reward continued effort and intensity, but I really like the structure and being able to come back and improve on a regular basis. Very grateful that I came into a forum where two of you guys had followed it and could recommend it.

3 weeks removed from my broken foot and I'm not feeling much pain. Just under 4 weeks til the state championships. My plan is to do 2 solid weeks of full training and then taper a little the following week and then only do a half training load the week of the event.

my only decision is whether I attempt a time trial in the next two weeks, both as a confidence booster and to gauge my fitness so I can plan how fast to aim for in my 2k. I'd either do a 1k or a 5k...potentially a 10k, in which I really don't have a PR yet. That is probably the easiest to fit into my weekly training, but it's also probably the least helpful from a planning perspective
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Old 09-14-2021, 09:30 AM   #840
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Re: 50th year PRs

Sick job; that's super impressive work. I always hated this one.

Re: Pete's Plan, I think it's likely more suited for some than others, but it's hard to argue with your results. I don't profess to know what the optimal split of steady state vs harder work is for anyone specifically, but I think I got the most out of rowing when I was doing mostly well paced steady state work with harder stuff mixed in. I think that means steady state more like what TG was programming (faster overall pace than I was doing under my pseudo-PP - remembering 4x weekly 90' sessions at 2:15 makes me wonder how I didn't die of boredom) with reasonably frequent harder sessions, but who knows. My quasi-burnout essentially came about because of a perfect storm of ramping down volume into a tremendously busy work time, so it's hard to state things with too much certainty. I'll see how the next few months go.

I'd say do a time trial if you feel strong and rested, but I think doing a 1k would be the optimally worst choice for me personally because of how much it takes out of me. 5k would seem to be kind of a decent compromise in that it's a challenging distance that suits you but long enough that you won't crush yourself.
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Old 09-14-2021, 06:38 PM   #841
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Re: 50th year PRs

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Sick job; that's super impressive work. I always hated this one.

Re: Pete's Plan, I think it's likely more suited for some than others, but it's hard to argue with your results. I don't profess to know what the optimal split of steady state vs harder work is for anyone specifically, but I think I got the most out of rowing when I was doing mostly well paced steady state work with harder stuff mixed in. I think that means steady state more like what TG was programming (faster overall pace than I was doing under my pseudo-PP - remembering 4x weekly 90' sessions at 2:15 makes me wonder how I didn't die of boredom) with reasonably frequent harder sessions, but who knows. My quasi-burnout essentially came about because of a perfect storm of ramping down volume into a tremendously busy work time, so it's hard to state things with too much certainty. I'll see how the next few months go.

I'd say do a time trial if you feel strong and rested, but I think doing a 1k would be the optimally worst choice for me personally because of how much it takes out of me. 5k would seem to be kind of a decent compromise in that it's a challenging distance that suits you but long enough that you won't crush yourself.
yeah, I am growing to appreciate the benefits of the longer steady stuff as well and I think a major reason for the improvement I've made over the past 8 weeks is that I've committed to doing a steady distance and a hard distance every week along with the two intervals, which I wasn't doing before.

You know the PP better than me and it does prescribe more distance work as you add more rowing days per week, it's just that I don't want to do less than two weights sessions per week. In an ideal world, I'd like to do another longer steady state row per week as well, but my crossfit period and then the post CF squatting & o lifting phase taught me that I have to balance my inner alpha with the realities and limitations of my aging body because being injured and not being able to train really sucks

interesting insight re 1k vs 5k and I think I agree with it. the 1k probably would take more out of me than a 5k as well as being more difficult to fit into my weekly training structure. I think I have a good sense of my plan for pacing the 2k anyway.

Last edited by feel wrath; 09-14-2021 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 09-14-2021, 06:49 PM   #842
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Re: 50th year PRs

Awesome work!

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3 weeks removed from my broken foot and I'm not feeling much pain. Just under 4 weeks til the state championships. My plan is to do 2 solid weeks of full training and then taper a little the following week and then only do a half training load the week of the event.
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Old 09-14-2021, 10:00 PM   #843
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Re: 50th year PRs

Definitely hear you about not crushing yourself as you get older; I'm going to ride out the September Delta surge with bodyweight stuff until I can get back into the gym in 4-6 weeks (maybe). 200 pushups a day plus 4-5 sets of either pull-ups or dips, so nothing revolutionary, but something at least.
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Old 09-15-2021, 04:57 AM   #844
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Re: 50th year PRs

3x5 Bench 90kg

3x8 seated barbell press 45kg
superset with 3x12 DB Bent Over Row 22.5kg

3x10 Barbell Curl 45kg superset with 3x12 seated hammer curl 12/5kg

3x10 Close Grip Bench 75kg superset with 12 Bench Dips

actually enjoyed this session tonight. had been tired/in a funk all day but hit up some music I hadn't listened to in a while and it really turned my day around
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Old 09-16-2021, 05:38 AM   #845
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Re: 50th year PRs

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stage 2 of my '3 time trials in 10 days to finish my 40s' insanity

5k row 18.28.3 at 1.50.8/500m sr 26....a 4 second PR

plan was to go out just a little slower than my PR pace time (previous PR pace 1.51.2/500) and stay there for the first 4k and then slowly ramp it up and see what I had left in the final 700...and that was pretty much how I went, albeit I didn't have much left in my lungs for a final push at all

pace splits were

1.51.2
1.51.7
1.51.5
1.50.8
1.49.0

the longer time trials really are an exercise in mental strength and how prepared you are to maintain your pace despite growing pain. I definitely think I am above average at that, but that I haven't yet been able to totally release any semblance of fear in the 5k in the same way that I do in the 1k

first 1500 is absolutely fine and then the pain starts.
by 2k I'm trying to meditate around my stroke and think about anything other than maintaining the pace.
all of a sudden though, it's 3.5k and just as I'm thinking I'm in great shape, the lungs start really heating up and contracting and I think I'm going to have an asthma attack
the chest contraction doesn't disappear but doesn't get much worse and I attempted to ramp it up with 800 to go, but it felt like too far out to really go balls out, so I kept turning it up slowly and then only really managed a proper acceleration at about 200 to go

very happy with the PR in by far my least favourite of the 3 'events'. really don't enjoy this distance at all and I would honestly 'retire' it as something to row fast, if I didn't believe that improving it is critical to improving my 2k, which is my primary goal over the coming 6 months.

I've been rowing really consistently and beating my times in all the interval sessions so I wanted to do a time trial as a tester and a confidence booster ahead of my competition in a little over three weeks time. I didn't want do a 2k as I'm really pumped to attack that hard and get a good PR in the comp and Monte's advice was right that a 5k is weirdly easier than a 1k

5k row 18.15.8 at 1.49.5/500, a PR by 12.5 seconds.

pretty blown away with this. My goal was sub 18.20 but I would have been happy with anything better than 1 5 second improvement.

I knew I was in good shape but it's nonetheless an intimidating distance because you don't want to go out too fast - the last 2k would be a lonely place if you bonk, so my plan was to go through half way and probably 3k at my PR split of 1.50.8/500 and see what I had left and that's pretty much what I did

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M hr
18:15.8 5,000m 1:49.5 266 1215 23 163

3:41.4 1,000m 1:50.7 258 1187 24 151
3:41.4 2,000m 1:50.7 258 1187 23 160
3:41.3 3,000m 1:50.6 258 1189 22 165
3:39.5 4,000m 1:49.7 265 1211 22 169
3:32.2 5,000m 1:46.1 293 1308 25 172

to be honest, I felt fantastic throughout. I delayed really putting my foot on the accelerator til about 600 out but I was speeding up all the way to the line and at the end, I still felt like I had something left. Being a little more aggressive in the first 3k or speeding up a few mins earlier would definitely be possible nest time and...knowing that I've got this pace in me now will give me the confidence to attack more.

another note for next time is just how much more comfortable I feel pulling harder at a lower stroke rate. I really got into a rhythm from half way onwards and 22/23 felt great. Drag was 123 and I think going towards 130 for this might help a little more too

either way, really pumped with the time - I've beaten my primary 5k goal for the year, it's given me confidence for the 2k in the competition and I think there's a decent chance I can take another chunk off this in a few months with continued training

for reference, this ranks
50th/1559 heavyweight men in my age group in the world, which is 97th percentile.

305th/7280 in the world for all age groups in heavyweight men 97th percentile

7/115 50-59 men in Australia and 2nd in my state..behind one of the people I'll be competing with in the State Championships
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Old 09-16-2021, 07:58 AM   #846
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Re: 50th year PRs

Truly impressive work; sub-1:50 is super impressive, especially given the late kick you had left. HR seems to support that this wasn't close to an all out effort either.

Lower stroke rate is what I recall preferring for distance work (although I'm obviously biased to rating lower anyway), and given that a higher drag seems to make sense. World ranking is obviously amazingly impressive and just buttresses what I've said about you blowing me away once you got some time under your belt so, again, great job and now I have something else to shoot for. I think you earned tonight's PB&PC sandwich.
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Old 09-16-2021, 07:01 PM   #847
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Re: 50th year PRs

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Truly impressive work; sub-1:50 is super impressive, especially given the late kick you had left. HR seems to support that this wasn't close to an all out effort either.

Lower stroke rate is what I recall preferring for distance work (although I'm obviously biased to rating lower anyway), and given that a higher drag seems to make sense. World ranking is obviously amazingly impressive and just buttresses what I've said about you blowing me away once you got some time under your belt so, again, great job and now I have something else to shoot for. I think you earned tonight's PB&PC sandwich.
thanks man. I'm still pumped the next day.

the extra distance stuff is clearly paying off - i kept waiting for the chest contractions and overall pain and fatigue and they just didn't come. Negative splitting is definitely the least stressful way to go, albeit it's difficult to know if you've got everything out of yourself.

IDK re your times vs mine. Difficult to know given the break you had and the lack of time trials earlier in the year when you were training really consistently but I still think you're capable of this time and faster in 5k and would guess you would/could get me on the longer stuff given how much more you've done and how consistently you train in that area. Its taken me most of the year to see the value of the longer rows but even if you're still regaining your fitness, you've got a lot of money in the bank from all the distance you've done over the past 2 years and if the world's a fair place, that base should still work for you.

Spoiler:


I still think relatively the shorter distances are probably better for me. I'm hopeful I'll be able to get into the 99th percentile for my age group with my 1k and 2k goals for the next few months and there's 0 chance I'll get there with 5k and up.
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Old 09-16-2021, 07:14 PM   #848
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Re: 50th year PRs

Spoiler:
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Old 09-16-2021, 07:17 PM   #849
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Re: 50th year PRs

thumb.

that's an awesome gif
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Old 09-16-2021, 11:11 PM   #850
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Re: 50th year PRs

steady distance this morning while watching the NFL.

80 mins total (10 mins more than ever before), 19,213m at 2.04.9/500, stroke rate 18, ave heart rate 143, drag factor 123

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M HR
1:20:01 19,213m 2:04.9 179 917 18 143

5:00.0 1,184m 2:06.6 172 892 19 118
5:00.0 1,196m 2:05.4 177 910 18 126
5:00.0 1,202m 2:04.7 180 919 18 132
5:00.0 1,204m 2:04.5 181 922 18 137
5:00.0 1,195m 2:05.5 177 909 18 137
5:00.0 1,189m 2:06.1 174 899 18 140
5:00.0 1,201m 2:04.8 180 918 18 141
5:00.0 1,205m 2:04.4 181 924 18 146
5:00.0 1,191m 2:05.9 175 902 18 150
5:00.0 1,194m 2:05.6 177 907 18 141
5:00.0 1,202m 2:04.7 180 919 18 146
5:00.0 1,202m 2:04.7 180 919 18 150
5:00.0 1,201m 2:04.8 180 918 18 153
5:00.0 1,209m 2:04.0 183 930 19 153
5:00.0 1,215m 2:03.4 186 940 18 154
5:00.0 1,221m 2:02.8 189 949 19 158

pretty happy with this. it felt easier than last week's 70 min row, while being 10 mins longer, 1.7/500m quicker. The average heart was rate 11bpm slower. Drag was a little lower 123 cf 128 and the sr was accordingly 1s/m faster.

I thought briefly about continuing on another 8min to do the HM but couldn't really see the point.

weights tomorrow and then distance intervals on Sun, albeit I'm getting my second vax early on Sun am, so I hope I can get the session in before any sides kick in. I'm getting Pfizer where supposedly about 50% of people get sides after the second one. I'm almost tempted to do a double day tomorrow to ensure I get my weekly schedule done, but will see how I back up tomorrow.

Last edited by feel wrath; 09-16-2021 at 11:22 PM.
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