ah thats probably what it was then.

so does anybody have any advice on how to buy a used .22? Should I just call around and ask local gun stores if they have any?

I have a browning buckmark pistol. It's easy and fun to shoot. I highly recommend them.

yea scotty look around in the papers and gun shops. you will find one. also a new one can run around 300 bucks and less.

bullets at wal mart went up from 20 to 22 dollars today. stinks

Ok people, tell me about stopping power. If I have a 9mm, do I have to worry about hitting a guy and not putting him down?

Also, what are the important characteristics that seperate the good 9mms from the bad? The only one I've shot is the S&W MP 9mm, which I really liked. Can anyone tell me how this gun stacks up against some others?

Pay attention to this new HR 45 bill. It's the first step in taking your guns. They want to register you and all your guns so they know who to take them from later. Almost every regime that started down this path ended in genocide. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.45.IH:

Topics in no particular order

-9mm shooting better than a 22....due to balistics this can be true simply of the caliber, could be caused by the model of 22, or could be that the 9mm fit your hand much better.

-Range ammo....most ranges require you use their ammo in their guns....22 is an exception since they cant reload that.

-Loading magazines....its an art and takes some getting used to...I use both thumbs.

-9mm stopping power...this is a long standing heavily debated topic...long story short (imo) itll do the trick and you are better off having something that you arent afraid of. More important where the bullet goes then what caliber (to some extent)...make sure you get good hollow point bullets (I like federal hydrashocks). For what its worth...it woulndt be so heavily debated it it werent close.

There are def some big upsides to 9mm....cheap (relative to 40 and 45)...lighter...higher capacity.

Im assuming we should be calling our congressmen and bitching about this?

I dont know much about the process and am not sure if its to late for this.

For a 22 pistol I would stay with a browning or a ruger.

Others such as walther and sigs look cooler and function more like an auto pistol (which could be a plus for training purposes)...but tend to be very picky on what ammo they need to function well.

Yeah just like PPA stuff. http://gunowners.org. The bill is just in committee and not out for vote yet but yeah go ahead and shoot off some emails to your House rep.

If you have a 9mm you have to worry about hitting somebody and not putting him down. If you have a .40 you have to worry about hitting somebody and not putting them down. if you have a .45 you have to worry about hitting somebody and not putting them down. If you have a .357 Sig or magnum you have to worry about hitting somebody and not putting them down. If you ahve a 10 mm you have to worry about hitting somebody and not putting them down. If you have a .380 you have to worry more than with the ones mentioned. The post above was correct, this is a much debated topic and there is not much difference between the major calibers. People debate "stopping power" like handgun rounds actually have it. There is a difference between .32 and 9mm/.40/45. However, none of the handgun calibers have any so called stopping power. None of them can knock somebody over who is not hit in the brain or spine and does not want to be knocked over. It isn't the movies. Read the latest FBI wound ballistics stuff for a more detailed discussion. People stop for 3 basic reasons. Their central nervous system shut down - brain or spine shot. They run out of blood. Or they want to quit/fall down or can't deal with pain well and think they can't keep going when they can. A determined attacker has probably 10-15 seconds of fight left after a handgun round gets his heart/aorta. A wimp falls down after getting shot because he thinks he is supposed to. This means if you get shot, you need to keep fighting because most times you will be able to, at least for a while. But as far as stopping power, meaning the instant knock down lightning bolt, a handgun round does not provide that. Now there have been improvements in ammunition and you should take advantage of it. The FBI and others have done some good work in spurring improvement, so if you get a good hollowpoint of recent vintage it should be fine. If you want to make sure how the bullet performs though layers of clothing or auto glass, take a look at the FBI stuff.

I don't mean to come off like I know everything about it, because I don't. But I have read some things and know of some anecdotal stuff in addition to some of the studies. Also there are plenty of anecdotal points out there in the discussions or writings that show you failures to stop happen with plenty of calibers. And the more you read the less attention you will give to things like caliber selection. The things that matter in terms of stopping an attack are shot placement and penetration. Get a decent caliber, there are differences between the main defensive calibers and the small calibers. Then learn to shoot it. Learning to shoot with it involves some practice, so if you don't like shooting it, you won't be as good with it as you might otherwise be. Practice also involves buying ammo, so if you buy more 9mm than .45 it might be good. Sometimes 9mm can be easier on the pistol than the .40 in the same model of gun, and it will be easier to shoot for some. So a 9mm is just fine on all kinds of fronts. It is a good caliber and widely available. A good 9mm is one that is reliable and can be shot a lot, and you can get accessories and replacement parts for. If you get a less popular one there will be fewer holsters and accessories available. Get one that fits your hand, has a long service life, and is popular. The particular gun must be reliable. Think about what you want in a gun you might take to a training class and shoot all weekend without it breaking. From what I hear the M&P is probably fine. I have never shot one though. Get a major brand that has been out there for a while and has the bugs worked out.

Sorry for the long post, I mostly wanted to point out there is a lot of BS discussed on gun forums or in magazines and such, and a main BS area is the endless discussion of handgun stopping power. Some out there know what they are talking about. Others don't. I know enough to spot some of the BS, not enough to train you. But generally when you hear people talking or posting on the internet and one guy says "trade your 9mm for a ***** because the 9mm is no good and a cop I know says you can shoot somebody 657 times with a 9mm and it won't stop them, bla bla bla..." and another guy tells you to get a better holster and more training, tend to listen more to the second guy.

excellent post, the first time i read an old FBI report title Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness i was blown away. before that i just assumed that all the gun people/magazines were correct when they talked about larger calibers being vastly superior wrt to taking people down or w/e when in reality that isn't true.

HDPM - great post. you pretty much confirmed a lot of what I was thinking, thus giving me the confidence to go ahead with my plan.

I'm gonna go to the gun store tomorrow. Unless there is a real significant price difference, I'll probably go ahead and buy the S&W MP 9mm. I guess after this I'm gonna start looking at some sort of rifle, so expect more posts from me.

What?? Where are you people getting this crap?

Read Evan Marshall's Stopping Power books. They have statistics where the better calibers were stopping the shootee with 1 torso hit over 90% of the time.

Agree with pig4bill. Even ignoring all that, it just makes sense that a 9mm will get a guy down faster than a 22, and a .45 will get a guy down faster than a 9mm.

Guys we really dont need to get into this.

Point is, for most people a 9mm caliber is a decent choice if they want to go that route.

Do I carry one, no. Did I just buy my fiance a nice Kimber 1911 in 9mm, yes. Will I occasionaly use it for carry, probably.

In terms of which 9mm to get......it should be based heavily on what fits your hand the best...obviously dont buy second rate...but theres plenty of great gun makers.

By rifle you mean defensive rifle correct?

As opposed to hunting? Yes.

Have you read any material out there criticizing this book? Have you looked at any FBI wound ballistics stuff?

So I got a Glock 9mm today. overall ran me around $670, including 2 mags and a gun lock. I decided to go with that per the recommendation of the store employees, who told me it is just a more reliable/time tested gun.

Anyways the next step is ammo. What are the recommendations? I know ammo can wreck my wallet, so whats a happy medium between a good round and a not-too-expensive price?

EDIT - The idea here is for me to get a bunch of cheap ammo for the range.

for example, how good is this stuff? it should be fine for range-shooting yes?

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...equestid=71276

hands down the bet 9mm for self defense is cor-bon 115 grain jhp +p. it goes 1350 fps.
for messing around you can find reloads or a few good brands of solid points for about 10 to 12 bucks a box of 50.

Yup, written by droolers who think you're a wimp unless you have a .45. They have nothing to back it up.

Yup. It's horse**** meant to put the blame for the screwup in Miami on the 9mm and the ammo they used, instead of their incompetent planning.

thanks for the reply ray. the things I've been reading have generally said heavier bullets are better, and 115gr is pretty light. thoughts?
EDIT - I'm reading some gun forum threads and I saw another guy recommend the exact same bullet. maybe I'll pick up a few of these.

Cor-bon 115 used to be very popular among gun nuts. I used it myself. It was thought you needed high velocity for a 9mm to expand reliably, and the Cor-bon transferred a lot of energy to its target.

Energy transfer v. penetration and creating a larger wound channel is a debate I'll leave to those more knowledgeable than I. But I've changed my beliefs and now like to use the heavier bullets for each caliber to achieve increased penetration. That means 147 gr in 9mm, 180 gr in .40, and 230 gr. in .45. With modern bullet designs you no longer need high velocity to achieve reliable expansion. So a 147 gr 9mm, for example, will transfer all of its energy to a target while creating a deep, wide wound channel. (The problem with a 9mm failing to expand is it can penetrate through and through without causing much of a wound cavity.)

Personally, I use Federal HST. A few people here have recommended Federal Hydra-shok, which is an older design and very respected bullet. But the HST is basically the updated Hydra-shok. Because the HST hasn't been around that long, arguably there isn't enough data out there re its effectiveness. But it's been doing awesome in testing, and those agencies that do use it have been reporting very favorably.

Edit to add: One great thing about the HSTs are that they're actually much cheaper than Hydra-shoks and many other premium bullets like Gold Dots. Not sure why that is. Also, boxes will be marked "Law Enforcement Only" but there's no law against buying them.