And I still fail to see why it bothers you that people who have a passion for something, independent if they are successful or not, put into practice whatever it is they have a passion for.

And why you enjoy their failure. I just don't understand, but maybe I am dumb.

You sniped at me a few times already in this thread, why complain now?
I did not complain about it, right?
Holier-than-thou indeed.

Last post since this is woefully out of topic, but I'd expect people to laugh at me if I hit on fashion models/fashion industry people and failed spectacular. The whole situation is comical, you know, people out of their depths trying to use strategy which is totally beyond them anyway. I appreciate comedy. Once again, were you bullied as a kid or something? Why are you so serious/so defensive about this?

Not at all, I think you'll notice my point was not so much you sniped me, more the fact your snipe was pre-meditated, but the best you could come up with was a hoiler-than-thou argument. You can snipe at will, I just require that its a good one.

Again, this is how I view PUAs. Running game to get laid. I've got nothing against it, and I'd love to learn more about it and see it in action so that I could incorporate SOME of the fundamentals into my social skill set. But any discussion about it between "non-believers" is going to come back to this because this is how almost all PUAs work (at least that's what I can infer from human nature.) It's like the PUA TV show. Guys are lying to girls in every which way (the way they dress reflects nothing of their true personality, the openers they use are lies, etc.) How does this not have a negative effect on you over time as a person and impact your ability to form real relationships with the true 10s of the world that would be attracted to you as the best person you can really be (with all the social skills of an expert PUA, but without the poser stuff.)

Are there any PUA instructors out there that teach you how to pick up women without being dishonest? (Serious question- I'd like to read their stuff.) Peacocking for instance. I'm not a ****ing peacock and I don't want to dress like one. It's not my style. I am however, very stylish (IMHO of course.)

You are close to what I believe is the "correct way" to go about things with the description you give above.

Thing is that most people do not understand, and this includes many aspiring PUA's, that all these stories, lines, openers, gimmicks, are all means to an end, training wheels, not an end in itself.

I started out with many things that seem pretty lame to me now, but worked for me back then.

However, if one does not replace all this stuff gradually with their own stories, openers, material, the danger is twofold: you come off as fake, and you never evolve beyond the point where you sit KJ-ing on a website, and trading material and tips with other people that also are not able to evolve beyond said point.

You know what is the funny thing about this whole PUA stuff for me?

The fact that I tried to be out there, change my personality completely, and then gradually coming back to a place where I can honestly say I am just the guy that I always was, with the only difference that I tweaked some things. The smallest tweaks can produce massive changes in how people react to you.

Franco and Gunwitch come to mind when you ask this question about doing things without the whole peacocking stuff.

David D'Angelo is quite good for PUA-"lite", even though I am not a big fan of him.

Neither of them advocate big changes, peacocking, and all kinds of stuff.

They do advocate being very very perceptive and thoughtful about social interactions, HOW to pick up subtle cues (ie,. what to look for), and awareness about the biological/genetic aspect of (female) human behaviour (Franco), to not shy away from being a sexual being (Gunwitch), and to incorporate teasing humor in your communication (David D.).

Maybe a lot of these things are blatantly obvious to some.

But that does not mean they are blatantly obvious to everybody.

Oh, and the TV show you mention is quite ******ed if you ask me.

At least Henry gives me food for thought. I do not agree with all his opinions, but I do agree with some things that he says, and I can appreciate where he is coming from.

You'd rather imply that I have no sense of humor and was bullied as a kid, on top of maybe one or two other personal attacks, that have nothing to do with the topics we are discussing.

Nice tell.

If you have not noticed that I have agreed with many points Henry points out as "wrong", that I advocate going deeper than just screwing as many girls as possible, and to tap into the possibilities that one has, be it provoked by PUA, martial arts, or knitting, then you just need to sit back, relax, and read my posts again.

My point in this whole discussion is that PUA, to better yourself, is as good as any other system, sport, meditation, or any other thing that could ignite you into taking steps to become a better person.

I'm not like that. Being honest is more important than being right.

This is a perfect post to use in explaining why PUA stuff fails. It is contrived. I agree with some of the ideas above in that most of my approach has always been to be aloof and not care but I actually just don't care so that works for me. To play at not caring is not the same thing. Someone doing that fully knows what he is doing and so realizes at a conscious level that he is faking it and that he is a complete fraud. You can't study material and learn an entire PUA nomenclature yet believe that you are cool about women. The very study of PUA material is the self-admission that you are not. This is all incompatible with true confidence.

This explains why PUAs only meet attractive women who are lacking personality as the better girls see an act for an act and move on. It also explains the misogynistic tone of PUA material because the girls who do fall for it are fooled and it is hard to have respect for people who you are actively tricking.

I enjoy watching some people fail but not all. It really depends on the person. Reading that site yesterday there were some posters who I felt a deep empathy for. They came across as nice guys who just didn't know what they were doing wrong and they honestly just wanted to desperately figure it out. On the other hand the other guys who are full of **** I'd love to see fail. I find it entertaining. As to what influence they have had on my life -- they are going to screw up the poor guys who are just desperately looking for help with this crap.

I have no idea if PUA material exists that claims you should be honest but if I had to guess I'd say no. At the very core the purpose of PUA material is too pretend to be something you are not.

You quoted me so I feel I need to clarify. In my facetious manual in step 3 when I say Be That I don't mean you should lie. Step 1 instructs someone to have a certain type of life that then allows them to be what the girl wants without ever lying. I don't believe in lying because that is faking and thus not compatible with confidence. By Be That I meant stress the truthful parts of your life that will appeal to this girl. The requirement of course is that you first go out and have a interesting life that you can do this without having to BS.

Peacocking is ******ed and again a perfect example of trying too hard. You can't fake being cool when it is all contrived without being fully conscious of what you are doing. I think that is actually what I find so distasteful about PUA material -- the whole point of it is to trick girls into thinking the guy is something he is not rather than the guy just devoting time to becoming that for real.

Henry is just nailing it. That's my point, its suboptimal. Manipulation is bad for moral reasons, but also bad because as humans we are designed to decent at it, but everyone else knows the same instincts we do and can spot liars. You can sleep with a lot of women, become well read, and improve your confidence without PUA. If you can't see why its holding you back, then there's not much more I can say.

Having read a little of The Game, the types of things that I found helpful the most were things like understanding IOIs and part where you escalate the way that you touch a girl (forget what it's called.) That kind of advice is what I like to hear about. I didn't read anything in The Game that helped along the lines of meeting women and improving your conversation skills with them. Then again, I don't feel like I'm lacking in those, so maybe it helps some guys. I will say that with all the resources out there now, pretty much everyone who wants to improve with women can learn something from it. It's naive to say that it couldn't help you at all.

i started out responding to you about how you are wrong, though i suppose i agree with you more than most people would. i dropped out of college after all because i agree that experience leds to much quicker learning and a deeper understanding which is necessary. i guess i agree with you pretty much, and as i said the Specific Ideas in PUA stuff is besides the point IMO, it is best at giving people a push to get that experience which they wouldnt on their own.

you have major problems in your thinking here. and you should realize it too. being good at girls is not an INTELLECTUAL problem, thinking about it critically is not helpful, it is an emotional problem. for the most part, if person X has friends who are good with girls, he would be good with girls in the first place. in other words, someone bad at getting girls cannot ask for help from friends who are good with girls, because he wont have them. person X will not be able to become friends with girls on a whim. do you really pass easily between all types of people henry? you seem out of touch.


[QUOTE]

The problem is if you don't have the ability to be successful with women how can you judge if the people you meet via PUA do? I was looking at the Toronto section of that site. Not much activity but I looked at the ten or so topics and these guys were horrible. They are planning an outing for Fashion Week and I was actually tempted to ask if I could come observe on the false pretence of wanting to learn just to see how much of a train wreck it would be.
as i said, i did two bootcamps. iw as the youngest one. most of the people who did it were 30 years old. they were nice guys. i think you are wrong here again. most guys and girls hook up when they are 16 years old, for someone who doesn´t learn this stuff at a young age they have a big problem (if they choose to see it this way). baby steps will not help them. most likely they have been trying to take those baby steps their entire life and it hasnt worked. so they want to take a radical change. so where is your problem? these people want to make a radical change and join a community of people who are doing the same.

also you talk about clothes, and working out... the people taht went to the bootcamps were normal people. they dressed okay, they werent fat, they werent ugly. that sort of stuff isnt the problem. it is just easy advice for people who want to be critical of PUA stuff to give.

again, are you sure you arent out of touch? you apparently dont have any idea how hard it would be for some 23 year old dude who is a loser and only been laid ac ouple of times to one day DECIDE -okay from now on i am going to change my person and be social and go out and meet guys and also girls- AND to actually do it. VERY HARD. also, you make it seem like it will naturally happen that when a guy is social he will talk to girls and get laid. AGAIN, a lot of the people in camp were normal guys who had friends, who even had friends who were girls, and just couldnt get laid. the jump from being social and having good friends to getting laid is much bigger than you think.

`
see above

see this is why you are a jerk. a lot of the people doing PUA want something and are trying to achieve it through hard work - and all you can do is laugh at them as pathetic.

no, it wasn´t jealousy. it was contempt which arturious wields over others so freely.

Henry you do not understand. You say why it will fail, but lets try and be constructive, so what would you recommend in its place? If i recall correctly you said copying MIMICKING, friends behaviors. please stop being dense and take a step back. i already said why your idea doesnt work on a specific level, but your idea is SIMILAR to the idea of PUA. it is learning new behavior whether from friends, from people we are trying to make new friends in the PUA community, or from ideas Mysetery came up.

if a person is bad at picking up girls, he either continues to be who he is and not get girls or he has to change. PLEASE STOP BEING DENSE. whether he changes by mimicking people who are good with girls, or reading PUA books or whatever its the same idea. at first the behavior will be contrived, and later on it will be natural. then we can all act with girls like you do henry, and naturally.


this is the same point i made earlier. if you NATURALLY are tricking girls, and person X doesnt naturally do that and then learns it, does that make him worse? the same? or maybe it even makes him better because he conciously understands the power he is wielding over other people?


YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG. STOP BEING DENSE. the reason people are losers with girls is because when they are with girls they are afraid, and they stop acting like they do with their family and friends. PUA wants people to act a certain way so they gain experience with girls, and maybe trick, if you want to use that word, some girls into having sex so that people gain confidence. THEN when someone gains confidence they shed the PUA techniques and become honest people with the girls and they get a lot of girls. AT CORE, PUA wants to free people so they STOP pretending to be people they are not.


why do you have to be fully concious of what you are doing for it to be succesful? really not sure what you are trying to say here. no one on earth is concious of why they do most things.

but its besides the point almost. the idea behind peacocking is that a guy does what he wants to do, and if he looks DIFFERENT it doesnt occur to him and he does it anyway. once again henry you miss the point. its almost like you see there are losers in the world, and you want to keep them down. if there is a loser he needs to FAKE becoming cool, so he can actually become cool at some point. if he doesnt even try, he will stay the same, a loser.

I'm not sure if by emotional problem you mean something like fear or nervousness or some form of emotional reaction which causes a guy who has problems with girls experiences when trying to talk to a girl. If that is what you mean then I can't really offer much advice. I find emotional responses to be suboptimal in almost all cases and the realization of that made me very rational in my behaviour. I realize I just can't tell someone to stop having emotional reactions though so I don't know what to say.

With respect to not having friends who are good with girls I think that depends. I have friends who are not very good with girls. I don't think it makes sense to talk in universals. The difference is that I think it is pretty easy for males to make friends so I see it as a non-issue in that if a guy had no friends who are good with girls it is pretty easy for him to make some. I realize you disagree but I'll come back to this later.

I don't have a problem with it as long as the community is actually helpful. I'm sure there are PUA communities that are of benefit to others. My point though is that they are very much in the minority. Most of the stuff out there will leave someone worse off. Further, when it doesn't work as advertised the guy might very well internalize it and figure it is something about him and then really give up.

By hard I have to take it that you mean emotionally difficult because the actual mechanics of it are the same for all of us. I'm not really in a place to address that since my response would be ignore emotional responses and would be fairly glib given it really isn't that easy for a lot of people. What I can say with confidence is that if a guy goes to a sports bar -- sits down at the bar near the TV with a beer -- depending on the city he will be talking to other guys at least half the time and more realistically three quarters of the time.

I don't disagree. I was talking just about expanding your network of friends not getting laid. It is important to start somewhere and establishing yourself in a social scene is the first step. Before someone can even think of trying to pick up they have to be completely comfortable in their social environment.

Actually becoming the person that the PUA material tries to teach you to fake. I mentioned an example from the site where a topic on creating the illusion of social standing. I agree that social standing helps a lot. The PUA approach is to fake it. My advice is to devote the time and effort into actually having social standing. Do you see how the two are different?


It is not the same thing. Being aloof because I legitimately could care less about a unknown hot girl is very different than caring and pretending that I don't. I'm not manipulating them. I actually don't care. It would only be manipulation if I was trying to trick them by pretending I didn't care.

I see the argument you are trying to make -- it is the why not fake it till you make it strategy. I don't believe that applies here. When you fake something like social status in the previous example you are consciously recognizing that you are missing something that you want. Faking it won't change that. Someone either needs to actually make the changes so that they have the criteria they want or they have to come to terms with not having it and be happy. Pretending won't change reality.


That is not the impression I get at all. Possibly that is your goal but from the stuff I have been exposed to so far it doesn't seem to be the goal of the PUA community.

I disagree. Some people try to be wilfully blind but when it comes down to it our conscience is transparent to us. We always know why we make conscious decisions. Also in this scenario the guys discuss why they do what they do on a site so even if you disagree in theory for this case it is pretty clear that they have cognition of their decisions, intentions, and reasoning.

How is asking about where to buy peacocking stuff, going there with the intention of buying it, buying it with the intent of using it as a focal point / gimmick to attract women a guy doing what he wants to do?

Quite the contrary. I wasn't a loser in high school but I'd put myself slightly below the average. I can't really say I understand what it would be like to be one of the kids that got picked on but at the same time I wasn't Mr Popularity either. I really didn't come into my own until university and even then it still took a few years after that to fully realize. I just have a very different philosophy than PUA material. If someone wants to be good with women (and people in general) they have to improve themselves. Faking it is only going to do more damage to the person. I think if a loser took the time and sat down and just came to the realization - **** I'm a loser now but I don't have to be one in the future and he set out to develop the qualities he is missing he'd do a lot better than learning to fake some characteristics while continuously undermining his own self-esteem.

Except it doesn't fail when implemented and utilized correctly. And I don't consider it contrived. I'm not playing at not caring. I can care about women I'm doing stuff with or dating- I just don't prioritize it over everything else before a woman has proven to me that she's worth it. This is not misogynistic, this is not apathetic-it's just correct.

I agree that studying PUA material is an admission that you're not as good with women as you'd like to be. You could be totally inept or somewhat inept, but you're definitely lacking something. PUA helps you fill that void. There's nothing wrong with that. PUA can help you build confidence as well once you start to have success with women as a result of whatever method or mix of methods you're using.


You don't see me talking about the Big Game at Bellagio or the 30/60 on Stars so you shouldn't be talking about what PUAs do and who they meet or don't meet. You just don't know. It's inaccurate and unfair to the board to spout ignorant statements like this one. I've met plenty of attractive women with great personalities. In fact, PUA doesn't only help you blonde bimbos or whatever you think it does. PUA would be kinda pointless then, because it's about more than the quick lay. It's the lifestyle change. Lots of PUAs have girlfriends-I assume they wouldn't be dating girls if their personality was terrible. I know I wouldn't. I would just bang them as much as I could. PUA lets you have a great marriage, a great relationship, or just great hookups. The one thing it doesn't let you do from my experience is have friends with benefits. I just had one fail on me and I doubt even a PUA master could have kept this girl around. She liked me a ton and wanted more, and I didn't like her in that way. No PUA fix for that, and I wasn't going to get into a relationship with her, so it ended.

Not true. It's not misogynistic any more than a girl using a Seventeen mag to figure out how to act on dates with boys is misandric. Obviously it isn't. Quality women hate jerks. There's a difference between a jerk and a true PUA. PUAs are cocky and funny-they're not negging women to make themselves feel better like jerks do. And they do it in a different way as well. PUAs don't hit or verbally abuse women, they don't play emotional games, etc. I think that your viewing of PUA as misogynistic is garbage, obviously. To imply that it's misogynistic implies that women don't have that much intelligence on average, and are therefore being manipulated by PUAs. Now THAT is an example of misogynistic thinking toward women, imo.


Again, you don't know what you're talking about. If some guys misapply concepts or fail at PUA when they're new at it or not making an effort with a solid program, that's not an indictment of PUA, or proof that it's ineffective.

As I said, I screwed up a lot when I first started out. It takes solid practice to get better and it doesn't just happen through osmosis. Like poker, it takes study, solid thinking, and experience. And you can't get experience without going there and taking your beats. Looking at a bunch of guys in a novice stage of PUA does not tell you anything about PUA any more than looking at a table of the micro limits I play tells you about the skill at a high limit Vegas game.

Not true, but I assume you're referring to programs like Mystery etc that involve the ridiculous clothes and props etc. I've never liked programs like that, although they do work for people. I prefer the David D'Angelo method which DOES work. That's what I use myself and it doesn't require props or ridiculous looking outfits.

And I'm not some chump, Henry, who's lying about what I do. When you tried to bash me on the not buying drinks for girls argument, I think I proved that there's nothing wrong with it and I had solid reasoning behind it, i.e. understanding expectations that drinks can connote.

I'm not trying to sell anything to anybody and I'm not trying to make a name for myself. Everything you need to get better is available either free or pirated.

At least Bruiser gets it. He's right-on when he says that people in this thread bashing PUA have no clue what they're talking about. It's easy to build straw men and then knock them down, Henry, but it's also disingenuous and unfair to the board.

Might work on a particular girl. I mean fails to make the guy practising it anything more than a fraud. In the end this is very bad for the guy himself much like being a stripper eventually causes issues for the girls who do that.

Of course you are. As you said you throw in "negs" at specific times. This is a routine. It is pretending.

Again only if the guy has no insight at all. PUA material just taught him he is inadequate. It didn't tell him to go out and improve himself only to lie about it.


The argument could be made that both are misogynistic but that is a different debate. Anyone who denies that the PUA community is misogynistic is either blind or a misogynist themselves. The most common used term on the site is "Hot Bitch" followed by Bitch and the entire philosophy is premised on tricking someone which inheritably requires that the people doing the tricking believe the people being tricked lack the intelligence to realize they are being manipulated. Given how pathetic some of the tricks are -- they must have a very low opinion of female intelligence.

Well when that makes up the vast majority of the community then actually yes it is. I didn't go looking for a site. It was provided to me by someone who supports your side. It seems like a fairly large site so I assume the 2P2 equivalent of the PUA world.

I don't think anyone has accused you of anything and I was quite surprised that you understood exactly what I meant with respect to drinks and you actually expressed it a lot better. That really isn't the point. I think you attribute your improvement to PUA material when the most likely explanation is that you yourself changed in some way.

Please PM me this supposed site, Henry. I will pm you a better site that I picked up a lot of information and advice from. I'm pretty sure whatever site you're looking at is not the 2p2 of PUAs. It's probably equivalent to the pocketfive forums or some other place that has nothing on 2p2. Honestly though, forums only get you so far when it comes to this. People need to go out and get rejected a ton and learn from their mistakes before they can improve. It's not easy to do, so effective PUAs aren't that common.

I'm not pretending to not care though. Yes, it's a routine, but that doesn't mean that I'm misogynistic or manipulative or any of the other offensive words thrown around in this thread.

I can't convince you that PUA does more than you think but honestly this thread is getting ******ed. I can't stay away from it because I don't want you to convince anyone. But listening to you trying to discuss PUA is like listening to a kid with down's syndrome try to explain the theory of relativity.

NO! There are plenty of guys out there with insight and social skills and motor skills and athletic skills and brains who still aren't great with women. Having social skills doesn't automatically make you great with women. Yes, getting over the hump with women and being able to approach them is a KEY first step when it comes to success with them, but it's only the first step. If the only stuff a guy have to say when he engages is asking questions about what they do for a living, what their favorite movie is, what the last concert they went to was, etc. then they're not going to differentiate themselves, and there's a very good shot that they won't be seen as interesting. They still might get girls but a lot of times guys will have simply luckboxed into it. Women tell me constantly that I'm so different from other guys. I'm told all the time that they wish more guys were like this. They wish that the guys would stop trying so hard and would stop sucking up. It's just not attractive.

I'm not going to pretend that some PUAs aren't misogynistic. My argument is simply that PUA is not inherently misogynistic. FYI, I've always used the abbreviation HB to refer to "Hot Babe", and not "Hot Bitch". Other PUAs I know use it in exactly the same fashion. Hot babe isn't offensive any more than a girl saying Brad Pitt has great abs is offensive. And people don't use those terms with the women anyway-hot babe or hot bitch. Hot bitch would piss the girl off and hot babe just comes off as a desperate compliment. Hot girls already know they're attractive- they don't need to be told it. And I think a lot of the PUAs that use misogynistic terms and act misogynistically probably aren't very good at PUA. I've never heard any of the pros say anything misogynistic-they all respect women a ton.

No it isn't. Forums don't make up the vast majority of the community in my opinion. Many guys who do PUA never visit forums. Some just learn from books and experience, and some get personal coaching from big-time PUAs(not guys on forums, but guys like D'Angelo and Mystery). The coaching is either in groups or 1 on 1, and involves discussion and sarging. And it's not free. It's actually quite expensive, but the guys who do it are obviously happy to pay it. Point is, looking at a couple online forums and deducing that PUA is in effective as just ridiculous.

You haven't personally accused me of anything, but you've consistently denied that PUA can be effective, even on people with solid social skills and a healthy amount of confidence. You and others have basically consistently denied that PUA can improve the success rate of these guys when it comes to female interactions. So when you do that, you are basically accusing me of that, because I'm not some PUA expert. I hope to be in a couple of years, but right now I'm intermediate. I'd say I'm better than the guys on whatever forum you linked if they're really that bad and clueless, but I'm no super-star like Mystery. Not even close. So if I can have success with women doing it, then there must be something to it. And it's not just more confidence and having social skills or whatever. Like I said, I have more confidence now from success with women and I've always had social skills. I've always had lots of friends, even when I wasn't having success with women. So it's not that.
My confidence level was not high until I had bedded a few attractive women, so it wasn't confidence that brought me that success, obviously.

This is what I did. PUA did it for me. You just proved my case. I was already in a social scene and PUA helped me find success with women. Bruiser is 100% correct.

-I don't have a problem with it as long as the community is actually helpful. I'm sure there are PUA communities that are of benefit to others. My point though is that they are very much in the minority. Most of the stuff out there will leave someone worse off. Further, when it doesn't work as advertised the guy might very well internalize it and figure it is something about him and then really give up.-


PEOPLE WANT TO PICK UP GIRLS. THEY FORM A PICK UP GIRLS COMMUNITY...

and yet you DO NOT give them the benefit of the doubt. You look in from outside on your high horse and say that they are doing it wrong. YOU ARE DENSE AND OBSTRUCTING. you are outrageous.

I have stated the same throughout the thread, but this was ignored every time, except for one time by Henry, who then went on to say that normally he would agree, but in this case it was warranted, for some reason I still do not understand.

People cannot relate, fine. When I started with PUA, I was an outgoing, happy, average, social guy who had his fair share of success with women, but I would always manage to screw up somehow.

After one time too many of these trainwrecks, and the realization that I was the constant factor, I started with this material.

The PUA bashers have to understand that if you are coming from the place where I came from, the dramatic change that you see in women you interact with is so overwhelming that it simply cannot be denied it just does work.

Then Henry comes along and says this change would have happened anyway, and one probably did something from "within" to make that change.

Sorry Henry, this is my life you are talking about, and you are going to have a pretty hard time convincing me you know more about my life than I do.

I would never dream of calling myself a PUA, but the discovery of the material has changed my life around 180 degrees, and I doubt it would have happened had I not discovered these things.

But I also realized that bedding pretty girls was just a band-aid to some deeper issues that I had, and I resolved these with sheer willpower.

I believe many PUA-bashers are missing the point here that it all depends on your intention and motivation. Only Henry has stated he has empathy for guys just being lost, and seeking help.

I was one of those guys.

PUA-bashers never stop to think if it is maybe them that should have the open-mindedness to actually try and understand what they are talking about.

I have seen so many misconceptions and wrong conclusions in this thread about PUA that I came to the conclusion there is no point in discussing it.

I doubt this ever will be possible, because the people that oppose it so much simply have no idea what they are talking about, and probably never will, since they oppose it so much, so they will not feel the necessity to actually delve into it.

Henry, I saw you mentioned sports-betting as a source of income for you.

Coincidence has it that I have had a 2-year stint with soccer betting, so I know how time consuming the research can be.

How many times you put money on a game and watched it in a sports-bar, and get annoyed by some unknown dude that just bashes players verbally, loudmouths that so and so is useless and should be taken off the field and substituted, and so on?

While you are sitting there, obviously more knowledgeable than this guy because you actually studied all kinds of information about the mentioned game, and *know* your sport, tactics, key-players, and who has what place in the hierarchy of the dressing room, this guy just makes one uninformed comment after the other.

Disturbing, isn't it?

This discussion reminds me of such a situation.

Other than that, "HB" means "Hot Babe". A silly abbreviation, yes, but at least get your facts straight.

But that is the problem of this discussion anyway.

P.S. Henry,

Tucker Max has basically endorsed the PUA lifestyle and notes how successful it is. He ran game himself. He was fortunate enough to be born naturally cocky and funny, and knew exactly what to do, but he acknowledges that it can be learned by people willing to put in the effort.

If you don't know who Tucker Max is then google him.

Most guys aren't taught this stuff or naturally ingrained with it.

That's because they really arent interesting! That is the truth. PUA may be able to help them fake an interesing personality, but Henry's method (self-improvement, hobbies, social network) can actually help them develop one.

Henry doesn't have a method.

I had hobbies and a solid network of friends before PUA.

PUA helps people learn how to talk to women. For most guys it isn't natural. They've been brought up to think that either men and women are staggeringly different and should act accordingly, or they have the egalitarian mindset that men and women are totally equal. Both are bad ideas to have in your head when you attempt to pick up women.

You arent addressing my point that the "guy" wasnt interesting to begin with, and that PUA simply provides a facade of an interesting personality.

no. is it allowed on the EDF to call someone a ******? all PUA systems will say "make changes in your lifestyle, have hobbies you like, play sports," ETC. It is just so stupid to keep bringing this stuff up. most people i know who study PUA stuff are normal interesting people, they just cant pick up girls.